Catholic, Orthodox Sacraments: Mercy, Justice, Protestantism

[spauline]

Catholic and Orthodox Sacraments relative to Mercy and Justice and Protestantism

Mercy and justice summarize all things that matter.

For in the end, we will either get mercy or justice, heaven or hell.

But the balance we need to have is, first, FEAR justice, but then, once having made INITIAL peace with God, CONTINUE to fear justice but also, TRUST in mercy.

Baptism and Marriage, the two sacraments heretics retain, are like the basics in regard to fearing justice, which is absolutely essential for salvation.

This is because, firstly, in Baptism, we say we fear justice and understand our need for mercy, and therefore, we repent and have faith. Without faith or repentance, salvation is not possible. Through FAITH, we fear not believing correctly about God, lest we perish because of our erroneous understanding of Him. Through REPENTANCE, we fear not obeying God in the moral realm, of dying in serious moral failure.

Marriage then calls upon us the good news: if it is true that earthly marriage is the greatest joy of love between two persons that can be on earth, it is all the more true that the only greatest fulfillment for us can be the ETERNAL marriage to God in the afterlife. Marriage therefore, shows us already the greatest sign of what shall be ours if we receive mercy: our marital, spiritual union with God forever in the next life.

Now, as for the life AFTER initial justification, fear of justice is still necessary, as salvation can be lost, and yet, this is not to be to the detriment of TRUST in mercy. That is the balance.

Now we know that justice comes upon those with willfully culpable heresy, or false teaching, and not belonging to the true communion of God, that is, there is justice for the one who sins against FAITH, that is, against INTELLECT. And then, justice comes also to the one that dies against MORALS, the one who sins grievously in WILL, the other faculty of soul.

Now, with regards to heretics, there are two types of dispositions of heretics in relationship to life BEYOND initial justification.

The first are FORMAL heretics: Formal heretics are presumptuous, assuming that NOW that they have made peace with God ONCE, they can never lose it. They are NOT afraid that they don't have true doctrine of God, that is, they PRESUME, arrogantly, that they believe correctly in FAITH and belong to the true community of faith, knowing all the while the Catholic Church sanctions them. Further, they believe that they are elect and immune to damnation from issue of MORALS: they believe either that they are cannot sin grievously, or else, that if they do, they will not held accountable for it. Hence, they make the grave mistake of assuming that INITIAL justification SEALS salvation instead of realizing that FEAR of justice must persist even after beginning peace with God.

The other kind of heretic is the good heretic, the MATERIAL heretic. The material heretic does not trust the Catholic Church, but not out of ill will. The material heretic STILL fears God even after his Baptism or commitment to Christ. He does NOT presume that his community is DEFINITELY the right one in FAITH and he does NOT presume that he is immune to damnation after initially loving God from MORAL sin.

But then, his condition is one of SPIRITUAL TORTURE, or DESPAIR in the face of MERCY, based on Calvin's suppositions, for several reasons:

First in regards to FAITH: Calvin taught that there is always guaranteed to be at least one community of faith that correctly interprets the Bible, but one can never know with certainty where it is, and that, therefore, one is in such communion, but that, nevertheless, one will perish otherwise. Hence, the innocent heretic is already subject to two sublayers of torture in regards to faith:

1. That his ministers don't truly speak for God and/or teach correct doctrine, and that, similarly,

2. When he partakes of their "holy meal" of communion, he is either eating damnation onto himself from being in a false community, or else will perish because he does not partake of the legitimate communion, wherever it may be.

The other mode of torture is in regards to mercy from SIN after initial justification. Calvin introduces the mechanism of spiritual torture: The chances are, you are predestined to hell, but just in case you are elect, TRY to live like an elect. In this regard, you now have an entirely new layer of torture that has three possible dimensions, related to Mercy and its sister property, Election:

3. There is NO mercy after falling from grace after initial justification, hence, the torture that, I have fallen from grace, now will i go to hell forever, and i cannot stop it.

4. There can be mercy in SOME cases of falling from grace after initial justification, but there is a way to fall after initial justification that is NOT forgivable, and hence, I will simply wait out the remainder of my life knowing that I will go to hell when it is over, without possibility of redemption.

5. One is predestined to eternal fire, or, that is, God does not desire my salvation, but wanted me to go to hell from the beginning.


The five sacraments of Catholicism and Orthodoxy that heretics lack are the precise five sacraments that heal this adverse condition of torture of conscience, or exaggerated lack of trust in mercy [scrupulosity], that the innocent heretic is subject to. They are...

1. Holy Orders: the Catholic, or derivatively Orthodox also, does not need to fear that his ministers are teaching false doctrines. The Sacrament of Holy Orders is the FORMAL means whereby a man is made a fully legitimate man to preach God's truth and administer grace, so that one KNOWs He speaks for God, and not merely THINKS he does. For this reason, no Catholic or Orthodox must cower in fear, thinking their priests in union with the Bishop are teaching grave errors of faith. They can be certain that because of the Tradition that the Bishops have, they DO interpret Scripture more or less correctly, and so long as they listen to these men, they know they are listening to God.

2. Eucharist, or Holy Communion: similarly, precisely because the Catholic and Orthodox communities are not merely such but also CHURCHES, they have the Sacramental presence of Christ and hence, whoever partakes of the Catholic or Orthodox Eucharist IS partaking of the true communion, and so need not fear damnation from either side: he knows he does not partake of a FALSE communion and that he partakes of the TRUE communion!

3. Confession: there is mercy after fall from grace, and one can be certain of such mercy to the supreme degree when one has told their sins to a priest (Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven them, whose sins you retain, they are retained.)

4. Anointing of the Sick: There is NOT any sin before death that is unforgivable. God wills to save you in every way, even in the last times of life, the REMAINDER of life, which comes many times, usually, through sickness. Hence, he leaves a sacrament of healing at the end, a sign of His Immeasurable heart that desires to give you all strength to carry you in love to the other side.

5. Confirmation: God never wills in a positive sense that anyone should perish. He has indeed FORESEEN and ALLOWED this, but He never willed in the sense of ordination. For this reason, he calls all men to hope for election, and toward that end, lest they despair, he gives a SPECIAL sacrament, a sacrament to CONFIRM one's resolve to be faithful to God, seven special gifts of the Holy Spirit to strengthen the Christian for the adult battle. In this way, every man and woman and child can know that God wanted from all eternity for them to be elect and offered every possible means to attain it, even, yes, this special strengthening!

[James-Scott]

Hey Spauline,

1. Holy Orders: the Catholic, or derivatively Orthodox also, does not need to fear that his ministers are teaching false doctrines.

We should be on our guard against priests who teach falsely, as well, because there are false teachers in our midst, just as there are false teachers on the outside. Arius was a priest in the Church and he began teaching a major heresy, and started a huge heretical movement.

Also,
It seems like you're implying that Protestants are heretics.
A Protestant is not a heretic. The word heresy means, "choice," or "opinion." It is the choice a person makes to have a different opinion than the entire Body of Christ. A person who is mistaken, however, is not a heretic. They may teach something that is heretical, but they themselves are not heretics. Arius, Nestorius, the Iconoclasts, etc. were heretics. These are people who came up from within the Church to cause trouble and strife in the Body of Christ.

and so need not fear damnation from either side: he knows he does not partake of a FALSE communion and that he partakes of the TRUE communion!

Because our Communion is true is all the more reason to be fearful. If we are not careful this true Communion will be to our condemnation, rather than to our salvation.

Confession: there is mercy after fall from grace, and one can be certain of such mercy to the supreme degree when one has told their sins to a priest (Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven them, whose sins you retain, they are retained.)

I would say, more specifically, if we confess our sins to God in the presence of a priest, with a sorrowful and repentant heart, we can be sure we're forgiven.

[St Croix]

The entire Catholic church is heretical for no longer insisting on women's head coverings (1 Cor 11) and for allowing the known sexually immoral (including presumably females who have divorced their husbands) to attend the eucharist (1 Cor 5). The issue is not Catholics versus heretics, but just how heretical is your doctrine, whatever your denomination.

[James-Scott]

The entire Catholic church is heretical...

I agree with you, but not for the reasons you suggest.
Two major reasons I believe this is because of the filioque creed and the teaching of the universal jurisdiction of the Pope.


What are your beliefs? I see your religion says, "Christian {other}."

[St Croix]

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[James-Scott]

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For most people I suppose that is the case. I find your views heretical, just as I do the Roman Catholic teachings. And I'm sure you and the OP find my veiws heretical too. A thread full of heretics ;-)

[Rdr. Arsenios]

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That should make you a Jehova Witness, Yes?

Arsenios

[St Croix]

That should make you a Jehova Witness, Yes?

Arsenios

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[James-Scott]

RC don't accept that JC ever ceased being in the form of God, which entails his elevation to the right hand of God after his resurrection was a confidence trick, if not his entire "incarnation" also.

What makes you say that? Are you sure you understand the Roman Catholic {& Orthodox} dogma of the Incarnation?

[James-Scott]

I forgot to address some other points:


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Where did He come from, then? Was He a mere man?

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Angels don't come from God?

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Where does St. Paul say this?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

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[mitzi]

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"He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[b] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain." 2 Peter 1

[St Croix]

"He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[b] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain." 2 Peter 1

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[maudman]

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Yeah that WORD said also.... """"""""" I came not to do my will, but the will of he that sent me""""".. """And he will glorify me in that day""... CHrist had a will of his own and he chose not to do his will but that of his Father... So God By nature is that which has multiple wills and that one will serves the Others will and all three wills are one in GOD...

You just aren't clear on everything wrote in the Bible and the things the Catholic church teaches.. Your like the ones who say they hate liver, green beings and Peas but never tried them.. You don't like the way things Look and therefore refuse to eat.. You doubt before you bite and you reject on taste not the nutritional value.. It's what most don't see that makes things good for us..

[mitzi]

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1 "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping." 2 Peter 2