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  • #61
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    so in other words, "you just gotta have faith" in science.
    If something's been verified by multiple research groups using different approaches, I wouldn't consider that faith. I mean, do you consider it a matter of faith that electrons exist?
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

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    • #62
      Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
      If something's been verified by multiple research groups using different approaches, I wouldn't consider that faith. I mean, do you consider it a matter of faith that electrons exist?
      I consider it a matter of faith that other people exist. I trust (i.e I have faith in them) that my senses are not deceiving me when it comes to the existence of people other than myself. Every single one of our beliefs are contingent upon faith, even the ones for which we have the most solid evidence.

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      • #63
        Sorry, I couldn't help myself...

        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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        • #64
          Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
          If something's been verified by multiple research groups using different approaches, I wouldn't consider that faith. I mean, do you consider it a matter of faith that electrons exist?
          Yes.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Yes.
            Well, then i guess you've demonstrated that you and I have different definitions of the term "faith".
            "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
              Well, then i guess you've demonstrated that you and I have different definitions of the term "faith".
              Have you ever seen an electron? Or done any experiments that prove they exist?

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Have you ever seen an electron? Or done any experiments that prove they exist?
                I've done experiments in organic chemistry that were unlikely to work if electrons didn't exist. And i've owned CRT displays. So yes.
                "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                  I've done experiments in organic chemistry that were unlikely to work if electrons didn't exist. And i've owned CRT displays. So yes.
                  What kind of experiments and why would they not work if electrons did not exist?

                  As far as CRT displays go, you are just seeing phosphors light up when an electric charge hits them. There is no evidence that the electric charge is made up of electrons. Could be magical beans for all you know.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    What kind of experiments and why would they not work if electrons did not exist?

                    As far as CRT displays go, you are just seeing phosphors light up when an electric charge hits them. There is no evidence that the electric charge is made up of electrons. Could be magical beans for all you know.
                    Look, i get what you're trying to do. I've got better things to do than to go down the rabbit hole of all the consequences of pi bonding and valence electrons, or the engineering behind the electron delivery system of a CRT. We have a different definition of what constitutes faith - why is that a problem for you?
                    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                      Look, i get what you're trying to do. I've got better things to do than to go down the rabbit hole of all the consequences of pi bonding and valence electrons, or the engineering behind the electron delivery system of a CRT. We have a different definition of what constitutes faith - why is that a problem for you?
                      Because you trust what you read and study about science, going by the evidence provided by others. Same as I do about Christianity. Faith is trusting the evidence you have is true. And I am an (well used to be) an electrical technician who actually worked on and repaired TVs so I really do know how they work and have even pretty much built one from scratch. That doesn't prove electrons exist. Just that electricity and electric fields exist. That electricity is made up of electrons is a good explanation but I have to take it on faith that they exist. I haven't seen them. Epicycles were a good explanation for the orbits of the planets once upon a time, but now we know they don't exist.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Faith is trusting the evidence you have is true.
                        If you want to define things that way, i have no issue. It's just not the same as my definition. And, as i'd rather stick to scientific issues, i'm not especially interested in debating semantics.

                        There is an interesting scientific issue here that may be worth bringing forward, though. I think it's fair to say that, in both our personal experiences, there has to be either electrons or something that's practically indistinguishable from them. Add in the experiences and research of others, and the case becomes far more decisive. We don't know, however, how many incompatible physical models are consistent with all those observations. It's actually a major unresolved issue in the philosophy of science, and it has consequences for the significance we ascribe to the fact that a model makes successful predictions.

                        That said, i'm not especially committed to our current model of the electron being the ONE AND ONLY right one, so it's interesting but not consequential to me.
                        "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                          I consider it a matter of faith that other people exist. I trust (i.e I have faith in them) that my senses are not deceiving me when it comes to the existence of people other than myself. Every single one of our beliefs are contingent upon faith, even the ones for which we have the most solid evidence.
                          Didn't want to ignore this. Yes, this could all be a simulation rather than the result of a coherent underlying reality, in which case science is just providing the rules programmed into the simulation. But i don't see any practical way of telling the difference, nor any obvious consequences to me. So i'm willing to go through life with that unresolved. Even i'm not sure how that fits in with my own definition of faith, fwiw.
                          "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Epicycles were a good explanation for the orbits of the planets once upon a time, but now we know they don't exist.
                            Circling back to this, because it's something that I find fairly interesting. At the time epicycles were proposed, people really didn't have the concept of a mental model that represented an underlying physical reality. That's a central part of science, but science didn't exist back then. Copernicus and Kepler helped usher it in, but even as their ideas were being introduced, there was serious debate about whether either epicycles or the Copernican system had anything to do with reality, or were simply convenient ways of doing calculations. It was only later that the scholarly community of the day became convinced that successful models could reflect the physical reality.

                            So, your statement's somewhat off because it's not clear how many people ever viewed epicycles as how the solar system worked (though a few clearly did).
                            "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Yes.
                              Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=definition+faith&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS740US740&oq=definition+faith&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.9196j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8



                              Faith - strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              Science is not based on faith.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                so in other words, "you just gotta have faith" in science.
                                You can say you have “faith” in the scientific method if you want, but that’s about all. The established scientific theories have progressed beyond mere faith in their factual accuracy; they have been multiply tested and verified and resulted in technology which has transformed the modern world.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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