A critical analysis of Titus 2:13.

[mitzi]

Hi mitzi,

Makes perfect sense to me. It is the how to go about it thing that has always set up barriers for me. About seven years ago I began to study scripture seriously, as something to occupy my mind, to ward off depression. My life was a complete soap opera at the time. In a way I think I had a Romans 8:26 moment. I've travelled many paths in my journey, but I think the journey was necessary to make me comprehend what it is to be a Christian and lead me to become a better person.

Your comments below caused me to reminisce...so please forgive my rambling...

Basically I was refering to obligations, and feeling guilty if you don't observe them. Like only having fish on fridays, or not observing Lent (big things in the 1950s & 60s).

As a kid it was drummed into me at school and home that if you didn't do this or that you would face eternal consequences. To this day, I automatically say a silent prayer before I eat anything even a biscuit, though these days it is an auto response more than anything devout, albeit I feel guilty if I don't give thanks. In the same breathe, I'm forever doing things I shouldn't, but ultimately I feel guilty afterwards - which I think is a good thing.

Maybe my mentality is just a product of the era and the severe environment I was raised in (?) In those days, girls at the convent were expelled if at any time they were caught wearing shiny patent leather shoes (the boys might see their panties - not sure how given the length of the skirts). At my all boys school, kids were suspended for having the wrong haircut, and you got six cuts of the cane if your shoes weren't shiny and your finger nails weren't cut and clean. It was a very regulated lifestyle.

Some years ago I was at a social function, and having a political discussion with a fellow and a lady interupted us and asked if I was Catholic. It turned out she was also and she asked the question because of my then style of argument and my emphasis on looking out for the battler. We agreed, that at least my and earlier generations had a particular mindset, a way of thinking. I don't know if I can claim such now, but I hope so...

This story reminded me of a book the lady recommended. It is called "Growing Up Catholic". I just checked in google, it has been updated but if you can get access to an early edition all the better. It may now be a bit dated but I remember it as being very funny.

I grew up in Coogee, a beach side suburb of Sydney Australia. Basically anglo-saxon/irish heritage. In the 1960s I did notice a greater closeness in the ethnic communities, but in those days all these were migrants, so apart from church life (the mass and prayers were all in Latin back then), there was ethnic bonding, especially those that had no English (generally all the women). Amusingly, these ethnic Catholics though externally friendly frowned on their children associating with us anglos socially. I think they thought us sinful. They'd come down the beach fully dressed, the men and boys wore suits, ties the lot, and the women in dresses to their ankles. The men would roll up their pants and have a paddle. The women would cluster sitting under their umbrellas. Meanwhile, all around them were us almost naked (from their viewpoint) anglo-saxons.

Hmm, todays society seems like that. My mum stayed in touch with her school friends right upto her death. As did my dad. My brother-in-law is like that also, but my sister isn't...

Keeping in touch takes a lot of effort, especially after we start work, get married, and it seems that after we have kids time just disappears, and then as the kids grow life gets complicated, and we lose touch with pretty well everyone. Especially if everyone moves around...and the older folk die off...

Several years ago a guy I knew in infants school (kindergarden to second class) organised a second class reunion. Until 2nd class, boys and girls attended the convent, after that the boys went to one of three boys schools and the girls stayed at the convent. The one thing that more or less kept us together, is that most of us continued to gather at the beach on weekends and more or less stayed in touch throughout our teenage years. It was the next 25 years where we tended to lose touch, but all this guy had to do was get out the year book, and go through the phone book. It is just a matter of will...mind you, he told me not everyone he contacted was interested in getting back in touch...

I went to that reunion and bumped into a girl I had the most incredible crush on in my teenage years. It turned out she had had a crush on me at that time. Troublw was, we were both too shy, and I was too stupid to recognise the signals...

I can relate to that. Our local priest/s were the same, so was our school chaplain and even the brothers at my school. Then there was all the people at church that all seemed to know my mother and therefore me. Plagued my life. I couldn't get upto anything without my mother finding out ;-)

I know what you mean. These days though I think of myself as RCC (as a type of ethnicity), religiously I consider myself non-denominational. In theology I very much appreciate the Greek writers, prefering them to Western thinkers. But I'm not drawn to their services. If you are looking for a way to develop a social community that is in accord with your devotions, then maybe investigate the adult equivalent to the CYS, or maybe even join a Catholic bible study group. I'm the worse person on earth to give advice in such matters. These days I'm something of a recluse. Not that long ago, I did develop a social life, but never found any satisfaction in...then again I had so many family responsibilities and the associated hastles it tended to interfere. That said, I think socially I'm out of balance but I have great peace...

Pointedly, scripture is credited to the Father, not the Son (eg: John 3:31-34). Albeit as the Logos (the Word of God, the memra of YHWH) the Son is the Father's spokesman.

One reason I stopped going to mass, it became for me a matter of rote, with absence of thought. Imo, one can't usefully pray using someone else's composition, I just don't think it leaves room for a person to allow the Spirit to intercede for us (Rom 8:26-27). But that said, I think there is value in contemplating someone else's composition, and I think group prayer is good social psychology.

In my church, when the Eucharist was resident in the Tabernacle sitting on the main alter, the lamp/s were lit. When absent they weren't. But at all times God was present and would hear your devotions. If you are sitting alone, you are not in church per se...

We lose a lot in using English words, especially when modern usage is applied. The Greek used in scripture is ekklēsia, the word itself simply refers to any gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly. In the scriptural (Christian) sense, it never refers to a building but any gathering in the name of Jesus (eg: Mt 18:20). And as A.Paul says that gathering should be for upbuilding each other (1 Cor 14:26).

Very true, but in the same breathe the light of Christ is not an automatic thing, it has to be received.

I may have liked your grandmother. If we all had that attitude maybe our modern affluent society wouldn't be as wasteful as it is...

Imo, everything the church (RCC) comes up with should be verified against scripture. The RCC & EOC are often at odds because the RCC imposes philosophy on scripture. Since the reconciliation talks began some years ago, this situation has improved. For instance: the RCC a few years back effectively did away with the concept of Limbo and the magesterium is re-examining purgatory. There are a myraid of RCC ideas openly rejected by the EOC, ROC, OOC etc because they have no scriptural support. So by all means be obedient to the church, but beware you don't find yourself imitating the Pharisees of Jesus' day...

You have this a bit skewed. Jesus was a long way from Jerusalem, he was traveling through Samaria and Galilee on his way to Jerusalem (quite a distance) Luke 17:11.

It is worth noting, that one of the three days Jesus healed was a sabbath (Luke 14), so Herod was constrained from action on that day. Also, whatever action Herod took he would have to do it in secret so as not to cause a riot, which would end up bringing in the Romans. It is worth noting that in the Lukan accounts Jesus was constantly surrounded by great crowds. Finally, Herod was also hampered as the minute Jesus was out of his Jurisdiction, he was powerless to do anything. And finally, if Herod was intent on killing Jesus, why didn't he kill him when Pilate sent Jesus to him? (Luke 23:7-12) Luke 23:8 & 9:7-9 indicate that Herod was simply curious who Jesus was.

Imu, our first obligation is the sinners within the gate. In anycase, the sinners outside the gate would be a reference to the gentiles. Though, it is worth noting that Jesus first mass conversion was to a group of Samaritans (John 4:39-42); but still he often professed his first obligation was to the Jews (though he never rejected a gentile who came to him).

A firm and high principle of the RCC is charity, and the idea hinges on Mt 25:34-46. Well worth thinking upon.

Hmm...but there are also practicalities. A.Paul says those in the eclesia who refuse to work should be refused food. Which is the greater love, to encourage slothfullness and cause resentment, or to admonish a brother/sister to usefulness and cause mutual love?

Here in Australia the Pope has sacked or retired several priests and bishops just for publicly discussing issues effecting the Australian churches - we have a huge shortage of priests. Anyway, I was recently reading an article by a groups of bishops who are supporting a bishop who has been forcefully retired by the Pope. They argue that Rome was becoming autocratic and centralised and was attempting to undermine the independence of the bishops working at the coal face. I guess it is a wait and see game here...

When I was a kid, our chaplain explained to us that we shouldn't think of "the church" as a single entity for in the RCC there are three gatherings, the church political, the church social and the church religious, only the last is the church founded by Christ, and only in it can true believers be found, whether they be clergy, teachers or lay. I don't think the church in total will change much, if anything I think it may become worse, especially if the Marian societies regain their strength. But given the progress the various reunification talks with the EOC, ROC & OOC we might see some great progress. At least Ratzinger/Benedict is a theologian. We'll just have to see how much his bureaucrats wear him down.

Hmm. I more or less seperate "faith" as that I understand with the heart and "belief" as that which I understand with the mind - through contemplation rather than the storage of facts.

Hi Apostoli;

I would like to say that perhaps this was the same cause for coming back to the faith – but it wasn’t. Although I went through many changes in my life that wore me down – I was still in some way connected to Christ, or walking with those feeling of going through the motions (in a way). I’ll never forget – One day, I sat down in my chair to read scripture and along comes this really strong impact/ I remember (like I said) when my grandmother and grandfather passed away - one night I dreamt that they were both waving be good bye as they held each other hand – and then the phone rang. That same night, the nurse called my mother from the hospital, she told my mother that her father had passed away. Those same feeling were with me as I started to open my bible that day – It was indescribable. I don’t even know how to put to words – and ever since then I tried to look for some understanding to all of this…Don’t think I’m not frustrated, but don’t I think I don’t pray for peace with it. As I’ve said to many ….it was the story of the Exodus.

You know, and I have to bring you back to Luke 13:32, sometimes when a person, like myself or even (perhaps) others, who have many things going on in their lives (they don’t feel it) – you can have friends in your life, yet feel alone – you may have a wonderful position at your job – but yet, some people don’t think anything of it. Some of these examples may explain certain areas of how people feel. Most people might have ‘everything’ in their lives- yet, they feel inside – absolutely nothing. Now, inside is the city of Jerusalem and there are people who are “spiritually” outside the walls. You don’t have to be sinner (or do you??) to have those feelings but you need that connection with God – to help you feel whole inside. This is what I mean by the word “walls”. Christ everyday comes into our lives – where no one else can. There is the spiritual side of life and the physical – you talked about that the Greeks have a wonderful word: Perichoresis=the mutual inter-penetration and indwelling that imo fits the idea conveyed in John 17:21. But there is another word called “transformation” and I think this is what happening to us as Christian, we are becoming united with Christ and also "in" His Word – To quote another point from Pope Benedict’s book “Jesus of Nazareth”,

Dear brothers and sisters,
Saint John begins his account of how Jesus washed the feet of his disciples with especially solemn, almost liturgical language: "Before the feast of Passover, Jesus knew that his hour had come to pass from this world to the Father. He loved his own in the world and he loved them to the end" (13:1). The "hour" of Jesus has arrived, toward which all of his activity was directed from the beginning. John describes what makes up the content of this hour with two terms: "to pass" (metabainein, metabasis) and "agape" – love. These two words explain each other; both describe together the Passover of Jesus: cross and resurrection, crucifixion as elevation, as "passage" to the glory of God, as a "passing" from the world to the Father. It is not as if Jesus, after a brief visit to the world, were now simply departing and returning to the Father. This passage is a transformation.

P.S. Thank you for your previous post - I really liked it.

I will write back more - I have to leave for a short time but I'm reply back either tomorrow or over the weekend. Take Care

Mitzi

[mitzi]

[QUOTE=apostoli;3233726]Hi mitzi,

I know what you mean. These days though I think of myself as RCC (as a type of ethnicity), religiously I consider myself non-denominational. In theology I very much appreciate the Greek writers, preferring them to Western thinkers. But I'm not drawn to their services. If you are looking for a way to develop a social community that is in accord with your devotions, then maybe investigate the adult equivalent to the CYS, or maybe even join a Catholic bible study group. I'm the worse person on earth to give advice in such matters. These days I'm something of a recluse. Not that long ago, I did develop a social life, but never found any satisfaction in...then again I had so many family responsibilities and the associated hastles it tended to interfere. That said, I think socially I'm out of balance but I have great peace...

I’m with you on that thought about preferring Greek writers over Western thinkers - but I still like reading up on anything that has to do with ancient bible times. Also, when I have the time – that is time to study – I will be going over to the synagogue for adult studies, as there are educational classes that focus on the earlier prophets – and Torah. However, later on, I had promised myself to sign up for classes at the local university for theology classes. So, one step in front of the other – I had talked with the deacon at our church about attending school (with the Lord’s help – immensely, I will graduate in my field of studies and also theology).

I truly enjoy my personal study time at home but the thought of being around those who want to learn more – will be a good beginning for me. Last semester, I tried full time work – overtime – and school – all with one car and three people, this is not possible. Plus on top of everything else – my mother had surgery – not serious but she wasn’t able to drive the car to and from home. So when everything seems more stable and when the moment seems right, and I have the chance to check around churches, I will probably like to attend an Orthodox service. Many people that I’ve known over the years go to a particular church – so I’ll have to ask their priest for permission to attend. A older friend of mine, that I run into every once in awhile, I’ll stop to ask her, “Have you seen so in so!” but the response back from her is always the same, “Does she attend mass – if she doesn’t attend mass I don’t talk to them and I don’t see them” - so I have to admire her for her courage – and devotion to the her faith, we’ve (my mother and I) have know her for years. – And yes, she talks with us and also she sees us – from time to time. (lol) – Along with the other friends who are Greek – I really love the faith and the people – they are very dear to me, as they are great people to know.

Anyway, now you have me rambling……so back on topic!

One reason I stopped going to mass, it became for me a matter of rote, with absence of thought. Imo, one can't usefully pray using someone else's composition, I just don't think it leaves room for a person to allow the Spirit to intercede for us (Rom 8:26-27). But that said, I think there is value in contemplating someone else's composition, and I think group prayer is good social psychology.

In my church, when the Eucharist was resident in the Tabernacle sitting on the main alter, the lamp/s were lit. When absent they weren't. But at all times God was present and would hear your devotions. If you are sitting alone, you are not in church per se...

I know what you mean - in away. However, attending mass, and if you've been away for a long time, will seem rather awkward at first when you first come back. I should also mention, awhile back, a long while back, I stopped praying - I had still read the gospel but I didn't make time to pray like I normally did. My mother came up to me and asked me for the reason and I didn't answer her. However, I've come to realize that praying is so important in my life - and my family's (..to help..) so now I pray while I'm at work or driving in the car. Sometimes when reading scripture or saying a Psalm, it will prompt me into a prayer. So there may be reasons why certain things may seem repetitious. Prayer is just like music - to the soul.

In my church, when the Eucharist was resident in the Tabernacle sitting on the main alter, the lamp/s were lit. When absent they weren't. But at all times God was present and would hear your devotions. If you are sitting alone, you are not in church per se...

Also, I want to say Amen - to your post, and yes God is present and fills us with his light (wisdom) and (compassion) – There have been moments in my life that I’ve been scared – thinking that whatever was in my life could take a greater control over me. I would say within the last XX years – I’ve come to find out, how false those feelings were. The Lord really showed me who was in control – and how those people weren’t really in control of…. they wanted me to believe they were....

“ “Blessed be your glorious name, and may it be exalted above all blessing and praise. 6 You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.”

So yes, God presents is everywhere – and in everything and he hears the prayers of the needy. So God's Spirit does guide us out of those place and people (like an eagle's wings) and places us in His care....

Again, I will touch base with you over the weekend and please have a blessed week in Christ!



Take Care
Mitzi

[apostoli]

Hi mitzi,

Hope your week has been good to you...

Anyway, now you have me rambling…

Ah! The Perichoresis! ...the great experiential dance ...in which one is motivated by the heart...

[mitzi]

[QUOTE=apostoli;3236040]Hi mitzi,

Hope your week has been good to you...

This week has been full of training and also learning about financing and also accounts. So, today - being Friday, was a blessing! This is a new career change for me (or in another area of the field) and I'm really looking forward to the learning more as I continue - part of my technical school academic is in operations and the 2nd half is in statistics/logistics - they call it down at work Strategic Logistics Management. Right now -I'm calling it, brain is getting burned out. There is much to learn and but for right now, I will have a three day "relaxing" weekend - with no worries

Ah! The Perichoresis! ...the great experiential dance ...in which one is motivated by the heart...

You're really pushing on this Greek word...which by the way I've been gearing up for this conversation because I read somethings in your post I wanted to reply too......

[mitzi]

[QUOTE]

Hi mitzi,

G'day, mate! How you going?

Keeping in touch takes a lot of effort, especially after we start work, get married, and it seems that after we have kids time just disappears, and then as the kids grow life gets complicated, and we lose touch with pretty well everyone. Especially if everyone moves around...and the older folk die off...

Same thing happened with our relatives and our side of the fence - mostly a lot of moving to various cities. Some are living in the Southern part of the country and the other half (or 1/3) live in the east. Today, at work - our instructor was feeling the pinch of missing her family. Next week, she'll be leaving to return home but I know how that can weigh on someone heavily - and that's the sad part because you know what some one is going through (especially when it comes to family) - so I'm happy to see that she's returning back.

I can relate to that. Our local priest/s were the same, so was our school chaplain and even the brothers at my school. Then there was all the people at church that all seemed to know my mother and therefore me. Plagued my life. I couldn't get upto anything without my mother finding out ;-)

dido...

Pointedly, scripture is credited to the Father, not the Son (eg: John 3:31-34). Albeit as the Logos (the Word of God, the memra of YHWH) the Son is the Father's spokesman.

going on a separate post for this one.

One reason I stopped going to mass, it became for me a matter of rote, with absence of thought. Imo, one can't usefully pray using someone else's composition, I just don't think it leaves room for a person to allow the Spirit to intercede for us (Rom 8:26-27). But that said, I think there is value in contemplating someone else's composition, and I think group prayer is good social psychology.

Yes, it can be. I've been to some prayer groups from another denomination and felt the closeness that Christ brings to the entire group - where the day or even week picks up. How incredible spiritual..the couple moved back to Idaho - She was a very strong Baptist.

We lose a lot in using English words, especially when modern usage is applied. The Greek used in scripture is ekklēsia, the word itself simply refers to any gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly. In the scriptural (Christian) sense, it never refers to a building but any gathering in the name of Jesus (eg: Mt 18:20). And as A.Paul says that gathering should be for upbuilding each other (1 Cor 14:26).

Very true, but in the same breathe the light of Christ is not an automatic thing, it has to be received.


Imo, everything the church (RCC) comes up with should be verified against scripture. The RCC & EOC are often at odds because the RCC imposes philosophy on scripture. Since the reconciliation talks began some years ago, this situation has improved. For instance: the RCC a few years back effectively did away with the concept of Limbo and the magesterium is re-examining purgatory. There are a myraid of RCC ideas openly rejected by the EOC, ROC, OOC etc because they have no scriptural support. So by all means be obedient to the church, but beware you don't find yourself imitating the Pharisees of Jesus' day...

You have this a bit skewed. Jesus was a long way from Jerusalem, he was traveling through Samaria and Galilee on his way to Jerusalem (quite a distance) Luke 17:11.

It is worth noting, that one of the three days Jesus healed was a sabbath (Luke 14), so Herod was constrained from action on that day. Also, whatever action Herod took he would have to do it in secret so as not to cause a riot, which would end up bringing in the Romans. It is worth noting that in the Lukan accounts Jesus was constantly surrounded by great crowds. Finally, Herod was also hampered as the minute Jesus was out of his Jurisdiction, he was powerless to do anything. And finally, if Herod was intent on killing Jesus, why didn't he kill him when Pilate sent Jesus to him? (Luke 23:7-12) Luke 23:8 & 9:7-9 indicate that Herod was simply curious who Jesus was.

Imu, our first obligation is the sinners within the gate. In anycase, the sinners outside the gate would be a reference to the gentiles. Though, it is worth noting that Jesus first mass conversion was to a group of Samaritans (John 4:39-42); but still he often professed his first obligation was to the Jews (though he never rejected a gentile who came to him).

Imo, everything the church (RCC) comes up with should be verified against scripture. The RCC & EOC are often at odds because the RCC imposes philosophy on scripture. Since the reconciliation talks began some years ago, this situation has improved. For instance: the RCC a few years back effectively did away with the concept of Limbo and the magesterium is re-examining purgatory. There are a myraid of RCC ideas openly rejected by the EOC, ROC, OOC etc because they have no scriptural support. So by all means be obedient to the church, but beware you don't find yourself imitating the Pharisees of Jesus' day...

Yes, I believe that it should - however, the interpretation of scripture and this is coming from the angle of all churches – not very many are cohesive to each other. You have many Christian denominations – with various ways that each will interpret scripture accordingly - yet some are not so keen on Trinitarians. Like the saying goes, there were 12 apostles, even though; four gospels were accepted Matthew, Mark, Luke and John – then Acts of the Apostles¸ but all slightly differ on points within each of the four but each “love” God and Son. Giving one example, Luke 1, the thought gives a perspective of 1 Samuel - as we look at toward the passage of Mary’s annunciation, this is only being one example. Another example would be in the book of John, in the beginning of the gospel (most trinitarians) are not in agreement on the fact where the Spirit of God proceeded from (And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and giver of life, who from the Father and the Son proceeds)

“The Nicene creed, foundational to Christian belief since the 4th century, defines the three persons of the Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In its original Greek form, the creed says that the Holy Spirit proceeds "from the Father". The Latin text speaks of the Holy Spirit as proceeding "from the Father and the Son". Link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque
Now, here’s how I continue to read the book on ‘Jesus of Nazareth”

If we are not together on these thoughts, in regards to John 17 - and also there differences on "proceeding from" or "comes from", as these are major theologians who have argued scriptural points for centuries, then how can we understand (from this area) on...?

Remember - Luke 13:32:

“The present “world” has to disappear; it must be changed into God’s world. That is precisely what Jesus’ mission is, into which the disciples are taken up: leading “the world” away from the conditions of man’s alienation from God and from himself, so that it can become God’s world once more and so that man can become fully himself again by becoming one with God. Yet this transformation comes at the price of the Cross; it comes at the price of readiness for martyrdom on the part of Christ’s witnesses.

If we take one last look back over the whole of the prayer (John 17) for unity, we can say that the founding of the Church takes place during this passage, even though the word “Church” does not appear. For what else is the Church, if not the community of disciples who receive their unity through faith in Jesus Christ as the one sent by the Father and are drawn into Jesus’ mission to lead the world toward the recognition of God – and in this way to redeem it?”

What I believe that Pope Benedict is telling us is true – remember the verse from Luke 13:32 – Christ was told by certain Pharisees "some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you." but how did Christ reply back to them "He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' Christ will be here on today, tomorrow and on the third day - as He goes amongst the sick and dying around Jerusalem (outside the city). King Herod could not "stop" this prophet - as scripture notes – but in our own belief he is "the son of God". This obligation - that duty that God sent him is as much as our own obligation to the sinners – those sinners who are sitting outside the gates of the church. In much the same way, we are united with Christ (John 17), and we should (remember) this, that each members of our community who has that "sense" of being around the city walls (like in Jerusalem), metaphorically speaking, are members of our own community. They are those who are outside of its gates and are sinners looking to be healed in order to regain entrance into the community of faithful believers in Christ - we (I believe) have a duty to follow Christ’s teachings – The “who is my neighbor”


…To quote another, Chrysostom, “The primacy of the person is also a consequence of the fact that it is truly by starting with the person that the city is built, whereas in the Greek “polis” the homeland took precedence over the individual who was totally subordinated to the city as a whole. So it was that a society built on the Christian conscience came into being with Chrysostom. And he tell us that our “polis” *(city) is another, “our commonwealth is in heaven” and our homeland, even on this earth, makes us all equal, brothers and sisters, and binds us to solidarity.’

We read in Isaiah “When that day comes, the Lord will raise his hand a second time to ransom the remnant of his people”…”He will hoist a signal for the nations and assemble the outcasts of Israel; he will gather the scattered people of Judah from the four corners of the earth.”

[mitzi]

[QUOTE=apostoli;3233726]Hi mitzi,

Imo, everything the church (RCC) comes up with should be verified against scripture. The RCC & EOC are often at odds because the RCC imposes philosophy on scripture. Since the reconciliation talks began some years ago, this situation has improved. For instance: the RCC a few years back effectively did away with the concept of Limbo and the magesterium is re-examining purgatory. There are a myraid of RCC ideas openly rejected by the EOC, ROC, OOC etc because they have no scriptural support. So by all means be obedient to the church, but beware you don't find yourself imitating the Pharisees of Jesus' day...

Corrections:

Like the saying goes, there were 12 apostles, even though; four gospels were accepted Matthew, Mark, Luke and John – then Acts of the Apostles¸ but all slightly differ on points within each of the four gospels. However, each Apostle wrote about the "unity" and also the “love” that God had for His Son as the Spirit of God was with him - guiding him in the "Word" - Logos (the Logos (often translated as “Word”)). Giving one example, Luke 1, the thought gives a perspective of 1 Samuel - as we look at toward the passage of Mary’s annunciation, this is only being one example. Another example would be in the book of John, in the beginning of the gospel (most Trinitarians) are not in agreement on the fact where the Spirit of God proceeded from (And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and giver of life, who from the Father and the Son proceeds)

I grew up in Coogee, a beach side suburb of Sydney Australia. Basically anglo-saxon/irish heritage.

....and I can diffidently connect with your background. My grandfather's mother was raised Baptist - but his dad's father was from Quebec *a Methodist minister* and his father's family was from Scotland (...Last name is French but the gggreat Father (was Scot) first five letters are MacCa they also have a Castle in Bantry district Matheson -they say limerick (but I don't know about this) - I'm still checking on this )- . My grandmother's side (on my dad's side) is Swed (her father came over on the boat), her mother is French - German, and her father was from Scotland (Edinburgh) all Presbyterian. So now the question remains.....how did we ever turn to becoming Catholics? Well, my dad not only loved my mother very much but he also came across a couple of good priests, as they both turn into good friends of the family. One priest, that they both knew, became an Archbishop and the other a theologian who taught at the University level and also high school level. However, the priest who became a theologian use to come every year to our home for dinner - then went back to study in Rome. If you knew my dad - you would have thought that the Lord sent an Angel. I remember (as I think about it) how he received communion for the first time with the family. That was a day I will (always) remember - because, as I felt, it united the entire family together - this unity strengthen our family.

[mitzi]

Hi mitzi,

Hope your week has been good to you...

Ah! The Perichoresis! ...the great experiential dance ...in which one is motivated by the heart...

Found what I was looking for - when you have the time please read: (I could not find the information because of the spelling - perichorisis (they share all knowledge and all will - finite and infinite))

"The significance of, "It is not good for man to be alone" was not lost on the Greek Fathers; they recognized the fundamental truth of the need for human companionship. This is in itself a reflection of the image of God as Trinity in humanity.14 The intimate relations among the persons of the Trinity, described in the patristic literature as perichorisis - interpenetration - create a communal life of Three in One where, in the words of the French Orthodox theologian Elisabeth Behr-Sigel, "the opposition between unity and plurality is superceded."15 As Behr-Sigel continues, "God's being is relation, personal love."16 John Zizioulas applies this to humanity's reception of God's image:

note:

Christ's two natures (and to the extent possible in the distinction between finite and infinite beings, the knowledge) are so united in love as to form a perichorisis between Christ's human and divine natures. Thus, whatever will Christ's divine will has, his human reasonable will exactly conforms to it. There are two wills in Christ (to say otherwise is a form of the monothelitism heresy), a divine and a human will, but we may also say that there are sub-categories to that human will and it is only the rational part which necessarily shares a perichoretic nature with divine part.

Link

(a) There is no true being without communion. Nothing exists as an "individual," conceivable in itself. Communion is an ontological category.
(b) Communion which does not come from a "hypostasis," that is, a concrete and free person, and which does not lead to "hypostases," that is concrete and free persons, is not an "image" of the being of God. The person cannot exist without communion; but every form of communion which denies or suppresses the person is inadmissable.1

Thus, communion among human persons is a fundamental aspect of God's image, and the second creation account emphasizes this human need for communion. Even Gregory of Nyssa, while not referring specifically to Genesis, asserts in the third chapter of his work On Virginity that "the sum total of all that is hoped for in marriage [is] to get delightful companionship."18 St. John Chrysostom is far more direct. He paraphrases Gen. 2:18 to show God's desire that man have someone to provide him with comfort and companionship.19 Chrysostom says that God created Eve from Adam's side because man needed someone with whom to speak, to share in life's trials and tribulations, to provide comfort by sharing in his very being.20 In fact, Chrysostom says that Eve was created at Adam's request.21"

********


So now explain this:(to say otherwise is a form of the monothelitism heresy)


Thus, whatever will Christ's divine will has, his human reasonable will exactly conforms to it. There are two wills in Christ (to say otherwise is a form of the monothelitism heresy), a divine and a human will, but we may also say that there are sub-categories to that human will and it is only the rational part which necessarily shares a perichoretic nature with divine part.

[apostoli]

G'day, mate! How you going?

G'day sheila, 'owls it goin' ;-} B'in busy this week on another topic, so sorry for the delay in r'ply'n...

Us true Ozies, tend to clip words...

Years ago I was at an English camp in Spain, participating in conversational English for Spanish diplomats, and several participants had trouble understanding me - a retired American English teacher suggested the reason being I spoke English English - contradiction in fact if you ask me (what is it that Americans speak?). The reason I concluded: English English is full of Greek and Latin words, just as Spanish is - albeit we pronounce them differently S.Farmacia=E.Pharmacy. In my observation Americans when speaking end pretty well every word with a "r", their dutch/german influence. I mention this as Europeans are heavily influenced by American perspectives, ignoring the fact that there are alternatives...

This week has been full of training and also learning about financing and also accounts. So, today - being Friday, was a blessing! This is a new career change for me (or in another area of the field) and I'm really looking forward to the learning more as I continue - part of my technical school academic is in operations and the 2nd half is in statistics/logistics - they call it down at work Strategic Logistics Management. Right now -I'm calling it, brain is getting burned out. There is much to learn and but for right now, I will have a three day "relaxing" weekend - with no worries.

If professionally I can help in any way feel free to ask. I'm qualified AICS (better than an MBA in the British Commonwealth of nations)...but I retired youngish...in my career I've mentored many an MBA...so I might be of some use...

You're really pushing on this Greek word...

Perichoresis is a wonderfull word to me! There is a style of Merengue I once taught that works best with the involvement of three people, or if necessessary uneven numbers (involving rather peculiar people who can involve themselves in perpetual communication), the more people added the more the intercommunication becomes complicated...but the complications of the dance are simplified once people get in sync...

Yes, I believe that it should - however, the interpretation of scripture and this is coming from the angle of all churches – not very many are cohesive to each other. You have many Christian denominations – with various ways that each will interpret scripture accordingly - yet some are not so keen on Trinitarians. Like the saying goes, there were 12 apostles, even though; four gospels were accepted Matthew, Mark, Luke and John – then Acts of the Apostles¸ but all slightly differ on points within each of the four but each “love” God and Son.

When I was a kid, my Catholic church was at the top of the hill, and the C of E across the road and a little down from the top. The old Deacon and our head Priest had a feud going on. Both prohibited their congregations from attending services or even baptisms, marriages or funerals of the other, and even congregates associating with each other on threat of being cast out of their churches. Us kids found it most amusing and made a point of confounding such silliness... at least on the beach...

You know, reflecting on the past, I wasn't aware of any alternatives to the RCC apart fron the CoE & the Synagogue. I guess they were around, but until my late adulthood I wasn't aware of any of the alternative churches in my city - actually even today they don't seem to be particularly visible, except in the new dormitory suburbs (JWs, SDA & Mormons excepted because of their door knocking, and I haven't encountered one of these in over a decade).

The Nicene creed, foundational to Christian belief since the 4th century, defines the three persons of the Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In its original Greek form, the creed says that the Holy Spirit proceeds "from the Father". The Latin text speaks of the Holy Spirit as proceeding "from the Father and the Son".

I forget when the Latins introduced the filoque. The idea originated in Spain as a response to the Arians the Son created the Spirit. It took a long time until the idea got incorporated into official western expressions. Ratzinger (now the pope) wrote a very comprehensive paper on the subject in the 1990's in response to EOC objections - he states plainly that there are not two origins to the Spirit, that the Father is the first principle, the sole source and cause of both the Son and the Spirit...and that all things are from the Father, through the Son. The Father sends the Spirit, but it is through the Son that the Spirit communicates to us.

Christ will be here on today, tomorrow and on the third day - as He goes amongst the sick and dying around Jerusalem (outside the city).

Sorry to rant, but you went on to repeat the same error you expounded earlier. In the Lukan account, Jesus was nowhere near Jerusalem, he was miles away in Galilee & Samaria. A journey that took him three days. Your whole premise (or is it Benedict's) therefore is skewed...assuming a central function to Jeusalem/Rome, that has no reflection in reality - both were adminstrative centers but neither was a religious center in respect of personal faith...and nor should they be (John 4:20-24). Both Jerusalem & Rome can be done away with, without any detriment to the Gospel/s.

Those outside the gate are those within the RCC and other religions, your very neighbours, work mates, shopkeepers and anyone else you come in contact with who don't have full belief in Christ's saving action and the loving kindness (grace) of his Father, whether they are in or outside of "the church". See John 4:38-42, salvation was not, is not, exclusive to the membership of any particular community of believers following a single liturgy... I vaguely remember Ratzinger writing along these lines before he became pope. Imu, Like JP I & II, B is (or at least was) something of a universalist...

...If you knew my dad - you would have thought that the Lord sent an Angel. I remember (as I think about it) how he received communion for the first time with the family. That was a day I will (always) remember - because, as I felt, it united the entire family together - this unity strengthen our family.

You made me remember something amusing...when I made my first holy communion at about 8yo, I thought I had become full of the holy Spirit - it turned out I was allergic to the host (not an uncommon problem, I've read about 1% of people are denied access to the eucharist because of current church imposed rules for the making of the host).

Christ's two natures (and to the extent possible in the distinction between finite and infinite beings, the knowledge) are so united in love as to form a perichorisis between Christ's human and divine natures. Thus, whatever will Christ's divine will has, his human reasonable will exactly conforms to it. There are two wills in Christ (to say otherwise is a form of the monothelitism heresy), a divine and a human will, but we may also say that there are sub-categories to that human will and it is only the rational part which necessarily shares a perichoretic nature with divine part.

This idea you have quoted is border line anti-Chalcedon. According to pope Leo, the two natures (physes) are at no time compounded...and the Son's divine will at no time governs his human will...when Jesus was hungry, tired, angry etc, he was hungry, tired, angry etc as any other human...

(a) There is no true being without communion. Nothing exists as an "individual," conceivable in itself. Communion is an ontological category.
(b) Communion which does not come from a "hypostasis,"

There is no communion posibble without a hypostasis. The hypostasis is the individual minus accidents (aging etc). See the Greek of Hebrews 1:3 - the Son is an exact replica of his Father's hypostasis (the word used in scripture).

that is, a concrete and free person, and which does not lead to "hypostases," that is concrete and free persons, is not an "image" of the being of God. The person cannot exist without communion; but every form of communion which denies or suppresses the person is inadmissable.

Genesis 2:24 indicates that communion leads to a single persistance of the many. The Latin church has huge problems expressing what is clear in Greek, simply because of the limitations of latin and all languages that stem from it (especially English). In the conceptualisations of Nicea there are three hypostases that participate in the one ousia, thus they are hommousia (in essentiality identical). In the conceptualisations of Chalcedon, the Son evidences one hypostasis, two physis, but is not a composite of two ousia - where physis indicates activity rather than passive existence.

[mitzi]

[QUOTE]G'day, mate! How you going?

G'day sheila, 'owls it goin' ;-} B'in busy this week on another topic, so sorry for the delay in r'ply'n...

Us true Ozies, tend to clip words...

Lol...

Years ago I was at an English camp in Spain, participating in conversational English for Spanish diplomats, and several participants had trouble understanding me - a retired American English teacher suggested the reason being I spoke English English - contradiction in fact if you ask me (what is it that Americans speak?). The reason I concluded: English English is full of Greek and Latin words, just as Spanish is - albeit we pronounce them differently S.Farmacia=E.Pharmacy. In my observation Americans when speaking end pretty well every word with a "r", their dutch/german influence. I mention this as Europeans are heavily influenced by American perspectives, ignoring the fact that there are alternatives...


Apostoli, I'm combining both comments..hope you don't mind.

If professionally I can help in any way feel free to ask. I'm qualified AICS (better than an MBA in the British Commonwealth of nations)...but I retired youngish...in my career I've mentored many an MBA...so I might be of some use...

Well then, I’m turning to the right person. I’ve been in the hotel business for many
years, but the only way that someone could advance was through how well they knew the hotel business (from within catering/restaurant into sales management point of view – along with rooms division) and also another important aspect was, writing skills – as a Sales Representative within the groups division (booking larger amount of rooms, sometimes conventions, wedding..etc). The majority of the work consisted of selling (yes..as with all Rep's) but also how you wrote the specs out for the hotels to grab the sale (on conventions – more detail was needed). This information was then given to the perspective hotel – or about 45 alternative hotels around the area – depending on how large the convention was, and also the hosting city; for meetings and wedding groups this was set up differently. On multi leads – it was painful! But I enjoyed the rush of the hotel being busy - through the sales to the hotel staffing really cuts the way the hotel will be (as I’ve worked on property, and everyone is happy to have work) – and the finalization before the Hotel Rep took over on the sale. Commission is a big deal from both sides of the table! – Especially with National Sales Group (with the city – if the city was hosting it– National would take over your position unless they released it the sale to you– so its a doggy-dog world out there with sales/and business in general!)

Which brings me to this thought, though – especially toward the international trail- I’m amazed at who takes the sale leads in Europe. Most of the sales are routed from the U.S to Quebec then to London. So now my eyes light up at the idea of transferring from domestic to international – and learning about the travel spots overseas – so the more you learn the better. Unfortunately, the trial ended for me and I’m off into a whole different area – that being, learning something new.


Writing skills were a must – but after leaving the hotel business and into more the Financial division – with classes at school and training I could be in a better and more secure department - in scheduling. I understood that you have your MBA. I've dreamt of having graduating from college and being out of the field that I was in – however, I didn’t have much room or time, so now I canl take the slow boat to China and take as many classes as I can - many new things to learn.

Perichoresis is a wonderfull word to me! There is a style of Merengue I once taught that works best with the involvement of three people, or if necessessary uneven numbers (involving rather peculiar people who can involve themselves in perpetual communication), the more people added the more the intercommunication becomes complicated...but the complications of the dance are simplified once people get in sync...

Originally posted by mitzi
Yes, I believe that it should - however, the interpretation of scripture and this is coming from the angle of all churches – not very many are cohesive to each other. You have many Christian denominations – with various ways that each will interpret scripture accordingly - yet some are not so keen on Trinitarians. Like the saying goes, there were 12 apostles, even though; four gospels were accepted Matthew, Mark, Luke and John – then Acts of the Apostles¸ but all slightly differ on points within each of the four but each “love” God and Son.

When I was a kid, my Catholic church was at the top of the hill, and the C of E across the road and a little down from the top. The old Deacon and our head Priest had a feud going on. Both prohibited their congregations from attending services or even baptisms, marriages or funerals of the other, and even congregates associating with each other on threat of being cast out of their churches. Us kids found it most amusing and made a point of confounding such silliness... at least on the beach...

You know, reflecting on the past, I wasn't aware of any alternatives to the RCC apart fron the CoE & the Synagogue. I guess they were around, but until my late adulthood I wasn't aware of any of the alternative churches in my city - actually even today they don't seem to be particularly visible, except in the new dormitory suburbs (JWs, SDA & Mormons excepted because of their door knocking, and I haven't encountered one of these in over a decade).

Perichoresis - Apostoli, when I search for the word to find out more information the spelling was different, perichorisis. Sorry, I don't know if when the word is used as in writing that its spelt differently or when used to explain. The information that I posted wasn't from my point of view - but I gave it, as to ask. To be honest, I understand the term but not from "how"position. I know that there is much thought on the subject and I'm sure I will run across the word and other explanation as I continue to read other writings.

Originally post from Mitzi:

The Nicene creed, foundational to Christian belief since the 4th century, defines the three persons of the Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In its original Greek form, the creed says that the Holy Spirit proceeds "from the Father". The Latin text speaks of the Holy Spirit as proceeding "from the Father and the Son".

I forget when the Latins introduced the filoque. The idea originated in Spain as a response to the Arians the Son created the Spirit. It took a long time until the idea got incorporated into official western expressions. Ratzinger (now the pope) wrote a very comprehensive paper on the subject in the 1990's in response to EOC objections - he states plainly that there are not two origins to the Spirit, that the Father is the first principle, the sole source and cause of both the Son and the Spirit...and that all things are from the Father, through the Son. The Father sends the Spirit, but it is through the Son that the Spirit communicates to us.

"that the Father, as 'the principle without principle', is the first origin of the Spirit, but also that, as Father of the only Son, he is, with the Son, the single principle from which the Holy Spirit proceeds",[10] and so "not from two sources and not by a double procession, but from one origin, from the Father through the Son".



Quote:

The earliest use of Filioque language in a credal context is in the profession of faith formulated for the Visigoth King Reccared at the local Council of Toledo in 589. This regional council anathematized those who did not accept the decrees of the first four Ecumenical Councils (canon 11), as well as those who did not profess that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (canon 3). It appears that the Spanish bishops and King Reccared believed at that time that the Greek equivalent of Filioque was part of the original creed of Constantinople, and apparently understood that its purpose was to oppose Arianism by affirming the intimate relationship of the Father and Son (and in your words..Perichoresis). On Reccared’s orders, the Creed began to be recited during the Eucharist, in imitation of the Eastern practice. From Spain, the use of the Creed with the Filioque spread throughout Gaul.

Quote:

Third, however, and of particular significance for later Western theology, was the so-called Athanasian Creed ( Quicunque ). Thought by Westerners to be composed by Athanasius of Alexandria, this Creed probably originated in Gaul about 500, and is cited by Caesarius of Arles (+542). This text was unknown in the East, but had great influence in the West until modern times. Relying heavily on Augustine’s treatment of the Trinity, it clearly affirmed that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. A central emphasis of this Creed was its strong anti-Arian Christology: speaking of the Spirit as proceeding from the Father and the Son implied that the Son was not inferior to the Father in substance, as the Arians held. The influence of this Creed undoubtedly supported the use of the Filioque in the Latin version of the Creed of Constantinople in Western Europe, at least from the sixth century onwards.

Quote:

The Filioque is, in fact, situated in a theological and linguistic context different from that of the affirmation of the sole Monarchy of the Father, the one origin of the Son and of the Spirit. Against Arianism, which was still virulent in the West, its purpose was to stress the fact that the Holy Spirit is of the same divine nature as the Son, without calling in question the one Monarchy of the Father.

to stress the fact that the Holy Spirit is of the same divine nature as the Son - John 1:1-5
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

and looking at another passage, The book of Wisdom 7:22 "for Wisdom, the artificer of all, taught me. For in her is a spirit intelligent, holy, unique, Manifold, subtle, agile, clear, unstained, certain, Not baneful, loving the good, keen, unhampered, beneficent, 23 kindly, Firm, secure, tranquil, all-powerful, all-seeing, And pervading all spirits, though they be intelligent, pure and very subtle.

24 For Wisdom is mobile beyond all motion, and she penetrates and pervades all things by reason of her purity. 25 For she is an aura of the might of God and a pure effusion of the glory of the Almighty

"Effusion" - defined, "a pouring out, overflow." (anachusis)

(to quote: "The relationship of the Holy Spirit to the Son is like two hands working together or even washing each other! The one hand does not spring forth from the other but is manifest in it's cooperation.")

Also, check this out "John the Baptist" and check out the article on the same page "Pope Benedict Revises the Gospels" date April 16,2011...



Apostoli - I've lost the rest of my post, and I'm really stress for time - however, I will write back tomorrow. Also, I understand that you think that I'm in error about Luke 13 - a couple of passages that I'm approaching the topic with and also along with these links - and one other.

Jesus was outside the city of Jerusalem - as Jesus and his Discipline had to stay away. If you notice how Jesus traveled - around (like within the circumference of - or outside the city of). Also, two other passages in John 11:54 and John 7:1.


AN OUTLINE OF THE STORY OF JESUS USING MAPS
http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CP051GOSPELMAPS.htm

and,

31 On that same day, some Pharisees came, saying to him, "Get out of here, and go away (Greek: poreuou), for Herod wants to kill you." 32He said to them, "Go (Greek: poreuthentes) and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I complete my mission (Greek: teleioumai). 33Nevertheless I must go (Greek: dei –– it is necessary –– implies God's will) on my way (Greek: poreuesthai)today and tomorrow and the next day, for it can't be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.'"


"On that same day, some Pharisees came" (v. 31a) links this text to that which precedes it –– a passage where some asked, "Lord, are they few who are saved?" (v. 23) and Jesus responded by saying that many in Israel will be excluded from the kingdom while many Gentiles will be included (vv. 23-30). "Get out of here, and go away (poreuou), for Herod wants to kill you" (v. 31b). This is Herod Antipas, one of the sons of Herod the Great. The question is whether the Pharisees are honestly trying to warn Jesus or are simply trying to frighten him so that he will reduce his public profile. In Luke's writings, Pharisees are not always Jesus' opponents (see 7:36; 11:37; 14:1; 23:50; Acts 5:34-39; 15:5; 23:6). However, our understanding of this passage does not depend on whether it is Herod, the Pharisees, or both who pose a danger to Jesus. Presumably Jesus knows the real danger, but is undeterred. He will neither flee from Herod nor allow the Pharisees to dissuade him. He has work to do –– "today and tomorrow, and the third day I complete my mission" (v. 32).

Link: SCRIPTURE: Luke 13:31-35

Take Care
Mitzi

[apostoli]

Apostli... I understand that you think that I'm in error about Luke 13 - a couple of passages that I'm approaching the topic with and also along with these links - and one other.

It is not so much I consider you in error, but in my infirmity I consider your emphasis as misdirected. As an avowed Catholic John 4:21-24 is my guiding principle.

Within the politics of the church we do encounter an alternative view. At a political level I have no objections to the church's impositions, at a religious level I do...

[mitzi]

[QUOTE]

It is not so much I consider you in error, but in my infirmity I consider your emphasis as misdirected. As an avowed Catholic John 4:21-24 is my guiding principle.

In the past, I use to see the Lord in one way but as I continue in prayer and also reading (very much) - I feel that I have become to know him from another way, one that you can come to know and understand, one more real to me. So I hope this next comment will make sense, I have come to know the Lord - not using the word "knew" the Lord. Can something become real and yet, not be visible? The contrast is that I feel more comfortable with my belief – and faith. There are things that I’m certain of (He hears - He's active - He teaches - He cares - and He is involved with lives) and in others ways, that I know that I will become to understand. I have come to love God’s son – brings me security of faith - that peacefulness that comes with well - being. So with that being said......


Misdirected because the emphasis was being pointed toward the direction that regardless of the warnings from the Pharisees or the threat from Herod "He (Jesus) will neither flee from Herod nor allow the Pharisees to dissuade him. He has work to do –– "today and tomorrow, and the third day I complete my mission" (v. 32)."

and the third day I complete my mission (Greek: teleioumai) as listed in the article 33 Nevertheless I must go (Greek: dei –– it is necessary –– implies God's will)on my way (Greek: poreuesthai)today and tomorrow and the next day, for it can't be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.'"


If anything, this passage showed not only blindness (an "imperceptive") on both persons (from the Pharisees to Herod) but also a lack of fear of God’s son (Matthew 21:33-46, Isaiah 5:1-7)

A passage out of Jeremiah "Should you not fear me?" declares the LORD. "Should you not tremble in my presence? I made the sand a boundary for the sea, an everlasting barrier it cannot cross. The waves may roll, but they cannot prevail; they may roar, but they cannot cross it."

A obvious thought, and being very apparent with the previous discussion on "filoque" – is toward the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit in unity, as being "one" – and as to show a likeness to this unity, John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Show us the Father?"
 

You write that I might be considered misdirected? Then maybe- perhaps in certain areas of study, like in the mysticism, as to understand the fullness of the unity of Christ with the Father. There being that oneness with the Father that all of us realize and believe but the ability to understand the dynamic is perplexing ("something to be grasped" (as in “ form of” verses being like (Adam & Eve, in garden), or in the image of. Giving the example of: proceeded forth or came forth ), see also John 3:1-21 "6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? see also John 4:23-25 - as this passage is very important to the understanding of John 4). However, the unity of Father, Son and Spirit, couldn't be understood or agreed upon theologically, filoque, as to be shown in equality.

Originally posted by Apostoli:

Within the politics of the church we do encounter an alternative view. At a political level I have no objections to the church's impositions, at a religious level I do...

There is a lot of respect with this Pope – and with his writings. Pope Benedict has gone over the history of previous Pope’s of the church but also has written many other Christian books – which there are some that I haven’t read yet. However, I look forward to reading them in the near future. Most of all, I like the fact that this Pope has made himself a teacher of the faith –

And yes, addressing your comment back, are you speaking of the church, the community as a whole or in the way of the administration part of the church when you said “at a religious level, I do.” ??

I can think of a number of issues – but some of them have branched off into another direction – and the others, in regards to the revelations of the church verses what the church’s positions on those comments and also toward the validity of the apparitions. I heard - some comments but how much (real) thought to these area – or as you said “alternative views” –

I will have to write you later on …Apostoli, I’m very glad I got the chance to get to know you and I look forward to reading other posts by you. This is the first time that I think I’ve really gotten to know someone on the Theologyweb board –

God bless and I’ll keep you in my prayers
Thank you again

Mitzi

[apostoli]

Apostoli, I’m very glad I got the chance to get to know you and I look forward to reading other posts by you. This is the first time that I think I’ve really gotten to know someone on the Theologyweb board

Likewise, I appreciate your participation in the dance of life ;-)

Years back in my first days at TWEB, I encountered two friends in Christ, the three of us having very different opinions, but in that diversity we felt free to share...I'm not sure what happened, but that friendship eroded over time as each of us stood firm with our particular conviction, but avoided offending each other. At the time I was open to be convinced to an alternative opinion...ironically, as I delved further and further into EOC argument, I found myself gravitating to a very conservative position...I guess life is a discovery process...

[mitzi]

Likewise, I appreciate your participation in the dance of life ;-)

Years back in my first days at TWEB, I encountered two friends in Christ, the three of us having very different opinions, but in that diversity we felt free to share...I'm not sure what happened, but that friendship eroded over time as each of us stood firm with our particular conviction, but avoided offending each other. At the time I was open to be convinced to an alternative opinion...ironically, as I delved further and further into EOC argument, I found myself gravitating to a very conservative position...I guess life is a discovery process...

Well, I hope our friendship won't be eroded. I know that I've had many other discussions with you in the past that I've enjoyed and also learn something from them. You have kept me on my toes - but those discussions, like this one, were for the betterment of my faith. Our Lord, will use others to point us into the correct direction.

We both come from a somewhat similar backgrounds - so the intensity of our convictions our strong. I use to think, with all the different cultural backgrounds, which one will come rushing out of my mouth, first. A story from long ago, my brother and I use to play soccer quite a bit after school and over the weekend. (Just to let you know I have three older brothers - four if you count my dad). One weekend afternoon, I took my soccer ball in hand and rushed outside the door to play with my brother's friends in our back yard. (we had a very big back yard - with trees that lined the backyard, like a fence) Well, that night my brother was bothered by the fact that I could play the game -well, not really well, but well. So that night, I rushed upstairs to get ready for bed - and both my dad and brother where standing upstairs near my room. With a smile on my face (lol) I entered my bedroom to pull out my pajamas - and you know I saw someone elses'.....As my dad stood, not quite all the way in the hallway but partially in his, I threw this symbolic gesture at my brother - as my dad looked on but with much conviction I had added this thought to my brother, "If these belong to me - then these must belong to you!"

My dad rushed out of his bedroom - laughing so hard that my brother and I stood there in the hallway wondering if my dad was OK....I grew up with flaming red hair (which turn brown thank goodness later on) and having a strong (Irish-Scot) patron saints name and a nick name that similar to my posted (board) name- but the name is still within the Slavic vicinity. As life went on the red hair soon dimmed - and so with my strong minded ways, now that had softened. So now, I have a son who reminds me of my stubborn streak....

Well, again, take care
Mitzi

[apostoli]

Well, I hope our friendship won't be eroded. I know that I've had many other discussions with you in the past that I've enjoyed and also learn something from them. You have kept me on my toes - but those discussions, like this one, were for the betterment of my faith. Our Lord, will use others to point us into the correct direction.

It's funny. I've been a bit disheartened of late, so I found your kind words an encouragement...

I enjoyed your story about your brothers and dad. I'm the "baby" of my immediate family, I have a sister (6 years older) and a brother (4 years older). My sister reckons I was thoroughly spoilt as a kid - I disagree, I simply took no rubbish from anyone. My dad was a night worker, so in essence I grew up in a single parent household - only seeing my dad at Sunday dinner (he worked double shifts six nights a week and slept during the day). This had a load on my mum, who was constantly sick, and as a consequence brutal - in this day and age she would be imprisoned for child abuse (my sisters has scars to prove it)...but to be fair my mother was sick with a heart condition...and she had a great fear of dieing any minute...so by the time I was eight (maybe younger), she had made me very independent - I'd do my own washing, ironing and cleaning, make my lunch and get myself off to school...I could even cook! But despite those positives, being the runt of the litter, and having been made independent so young, I developed a Napoleon instinct...

My sister reckons I was born albino, I don't know, older people called me "Snow", I was very fair until my teens and into my 20s (couldn't walk under a light bulb without getting burnt when I was a kid ;-) All thats changed as my melanin levels increased, and in a way that seems to have delivered to me greater maturity and peace (or is that just a consequence of aging?) But all in all, I'm a child at heart, easily amused and often fascinated by the most simple of things...In the same breathe I have a complex side - it use to annoy my dad that I'd pull things apart to see how they worked, but just left behind a mess...

To some extent, I approach scripture the same way, I pull it apart, but these days I try to put it back the way I found it ;-)

I have no idea why I am rambling so...I guess I'm just feeling insecure in my opinions of late, and seem to have developed a tendency towards legalism, something I try to gaurd against...if you find me heading in that direction, please correct me...

[mitzi]

It's funny. I've been a bit disheartened of late, so I found your kind words an encouragement...

I enjoyed your story about your brothers and dad. I'm the "baby" of my immediate family, I have a sister (6 years older) and a brother (4 years older). My sister reckons I was thoroughly spoilt as a kid - I disagree, I simply took no rubbish from anyone. My dad was a night worker, so in essence I grew up in a single parent household - only seeing my dad at Sunday dinner (he worked double shifts six nights a week and slept during the day). This had a load on my mum, who was constantly sick, and as a consequence brutal - in this day and age she would be imprisoned for child abuse (my sisters has scars to prove it)...but to be fair my mother was sick with a heart condition...and she had a great fear of dieing any minute...so by the time I was eight (maybe younger), she had made me very independent - I'd do my own washing, ironing and cleaning, make my lunch and get myself off to school...I could even cook! But despite those positives, being the runt of the litter, and having been made independent so young, I developed a Napoleon instinct...

My sister reckons I was born albino, I don't know, older people called me "Snow", I was very fair until my teens and into my 20s (couldn't walk under a light bulb without getting burnt when I was a kid ;-) All thats changed as my melanin levels increased, and in a way that seems to have delivered to me greater maturity and peace (or is that just a consequence of aging?) But all in all, I'm a child at heart, easily amused and often fascinated by the most simple of things...In the same breathe I have a complex side - it use to annoy my dad that I'd pull things apart to see how they worked, but just left behind a mess...

To some extent, I approach scripture the same way, I pull it apart, but these days I try to put it back the way I found it ;-)

I have no idea why I am rambling so...I guess I'm just feeling insecure in my opinions of late, and seem to have developed a tendency towards legalism, something I try to guard against...if you find me heading in that direction, please correct me...

Hi Apostoli;

Well, I've enjoyed your writings (postings) and also thoughts on scripture. Sometimes, when I log onto to the board I look for some familiar members, as your posts always comes to mind. So I don't know why you're down? You've lifted my spirit this week, so I can't thank you enough for these posts.

Also, just so you know, like you, I'm fair skin - when I was younger my friend's father use to ask, "When you go to the beach do people make the mistake of stepping on you when you go out to sun bath?"....My friend's father happens to be dark skin French, as I am lite skin (part) French ,Swedish, German (dark skin), Irish-Scot, Czech (Moroccan - Jewish) and Bohemian (did I miss anything? - ). So after the comment was made, and the very next day, I laid in the sun for hours and took in a nice burn - however, days later I started to see a little change in my skin color from fiery red to a reddish-brown tone - for my brother's wedding pictures.

Anyway, its always nice to discuss points of view - to some extent. However, it is sad that there are some who tend to think otherwise. Sometimes I think I shouldn't have gone this far with the scriptures, as to keep my opinions and thoughts to myself but if I had (thought about it along those lines) I wouldn't have meant up with the people who have been a great source of help to me -like yourself. There have been some really good Christians and Jewish people that I really admire and also enjoy reading their post (some from other forums - long ago, and also that live in Jerusalem, a Rabbi). However, I know (others) don't see me as growing in my faith - but I have. There is such a big difference in how I respond to scripture these days. Like I said before, Christ leads me and I must "learn" how to follow in that great dance, so to speak. When I read the scripture, I can actually "hear" Paul's words or Christ's words. When I ask God to "open my heart to his words", the parts of scripture become compassionate and loving and so encouraging, as those parts of scripture really cut into the soul and make me alive again.

When I read from Genesis to the New Testament - I pick up on something new each time. Whatever one wants to find in scripture - they will have help finding it. Whether you look to the scripture for peace and consolation - it will be there or whether you are seeking God's face - with all your heart, mind and soul - He will be there. Honestly - there have been moments in prayer that I really could understand the difference between His peace and the world (idea) of peace. There is such a huge difference - I ask this kind of peace for my own immediate family (my Mom and Dad/ and brothers/and cousins (my father has passed away years ago - but I think of him a lot) and for my own son. That kind of peace moves you throughout the day. All this week, I told my mother to pray (which she does anyway) but I got her to pray during the most trying times of her day. When I sit at church, I ask Christ to take away that tension that I feel during the day - and before I leave the church, I feel so at rest so that I can finish out the day and enjoy my family time. The house runs so smoothly...at night, I pray before I go to bed and also when I go to work I walk with my prayer book - and also sometimes sit for awhile. The peace that Christ gives - is something to experience. It's great!


The Psalms that perfectly describes our intertwined relationship says, "The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for His name' sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: For thou art with me; Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies; Thou annointest my head with oil; My cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

So Apostoli - its those time when you feel disheartened that Jesus comes through for us. Jesus will reach out to you - by scripture or through friends and family/perhaps through someone around you - but He will strengthen you (John 17)

God Bless
Kol Tuv -:)
Mitzi