Eternal Torment in Hell

[mrsticky005]

"Hell" is sometimes used loosely as a general term for the experience of God's wrath in the afterlife. Technically, "Hell" (from Hebrew Sheol) is the "place" where the damned are tormented prior to the final resurrection and judgment. After that judgment, Revelation tells us that "Hades" (presumably the same as Sheol) is thrown into the Lake of Fire where Satan is tormented forever, and that the damned are placed there too. Why does God resurrect the damned from one torment, judge them, and place them into a different eternal torment? We don't know. There are many things in the Bible that we don't know why yet. This is one of them.

I dunno. For the laughs? Maybe God wants to give the damned the slightest bit of hope before saying "Just kidding. Back you go."

[RBerman]

I dunno. For the laughs? Maybe God wants to give the damned the slightest bit of hope before saying "Just kidding. Back you go."

We'll see. I don't generally find it helpful to speculate about such things.

[mrsticky005]

We'll see. I don't generally find it helpful to speculate about such things.

Just to be clear, I don't actually think that God would be like that. I do believe God is all loving and all just.
Which is why I question the idea that one goes to hell and then is resurrected to only go back to hell.
It would neither be loving by any stretch of the imagination. Nor do I find it very just. The eternity
part isn't really a problem for me. If sin's consequences are eternal punishment then that's just how it is.
But the problem here is that the person goes to hell and then after being resurrected are THEN judged.
It does seem very just to me for a person to face punishment before they are tried. So are they judged
before they go to hell and then judged again before going back? If that was the case then why wasn't
God's FIRST judgment sufficient? If we need to be judged again then it shows something was wrong with the first trial.
Unless somehow it would be possible for a person in hell to repent and accept Jesus' sacrifice. Then a second
trial would make sense. But a "second chance" in hell gives the impression of a free ticket to sin here.
So there's that the problem. But then again I doubt the person who tries to take advantage would sincerely accept Jesus.

[RBerman]

Just to be clear, I don't actually think that God would be like that. I do believe God is all loving and all just. Which is why I question the idea that one goes to hell and then is resurrected to only go back to hell. It would neither be loving by any stretch of the imagination. Nor do I find it very just. The eternity part isn't really a problem for me. If sin's consequences are eternal punishment then that's just how it is. But the problem here is that the person goes to hell and then after being resurrected are THEN judged. It does seem very just to me for a person to face punishment before they are tried. So are they judged before they go to hell and then judged again before going back? If that was the case then why wasn't God's FIRST judgment sufficient? If we need to be judged again then it shows something was wrong with the first trial. Unless somehow it would be possible for a person in hell to repent and accept Jesus' sacrifice. Then a second trial would make sense. But a "second chance" in hell gives the impression of a free ticket to sin here. So there's that the problem. But then again I doubt the person who tries to take advantage would sincerely accept Jesus.

I must warn you against being limited by your "stretch of the imagination." We're finite beings, not remotely qualified to predict with any confidence how God will act and why. Read the end of Job for a great example of this. Besides which, I don't know where you got the idea that we are judged before going to Hell. Where does the Bible speak of that judgment? There's only one judgment: the final judgment, at the return of Christ. But God is not bound by time, and he "carries forward" the verdict of that judgment into our lives. We are justified before God now, in anticipation of the fact that we will be vindicated at the final judgment. And the damned are consigned to Hell until that judgment, in anticipation of their ultimate fate in the Lake of Fire. 2 Peter 2:4 speaks of the fallen angels whom God has "cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment." Our own legal system does the same thing: Accused criminals are often incarcerated while awaiting trial. It also allows for bail by paying money, whereas I suppose you could say that deceased Christians are "out on bail" due to the payment made by Christ for their sins. It's not a perfect analogy, but hopefully it will help expand your "stretch of the imagination" a little.

[mrsticky005]

I must warn you against being limited by your "stretch of the imagination." We're finite beings, not remotely qualified to predict with any confidence how God will act and why. Read the end of Job for a great example of this. Besides which, I don't know where you got the idea that we are judged before going to Hell. Where does the Bible speak of that judgment? There's only one judgment: the final judgment, at the return of Christ. But God is not bound by time, and he "carries forward" the verdict of that judgment into our lives. We are justified before God now, in anticipation of the fact that we will be vindicated at the final judgment. And the damned are consigned to Hell until that judgment, in anticipation of their ultimate fate in the Lake of Fire. 2 Peter 2:4 speaks of the fallen angels whom God has "cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment." Our own legal system does the same thing: Accused criminals are often incarcerated while awaiting trial. It also allows for bail by paying money, whereas I suppose you could say that deceased Christians are "out on bail" due to the payment made by Christ for their sins. It's not a perfect analogy, but hopefully it will help expand your "stretch of the imagination" a little.

I said two judgments because wouldn't hell itself be a punishment? God wouldn't put someone who has accepted Christ in hell
would God? So God would have to judge that person has accepted Christ before putting them in hell. Therefore two judgments.

[RBerman]

I said two judgments because wouldn't hell itself be a punishment? God wouldn't put someone who has accepted Christ in hell
would God? So God would have to judge that person has accepted Christ before putting them in hell. Therefore two judgments.

Hell is a bringing forward of the actual final judgment. That's why all the people who receive the Lake of Fire also receive Hell: It's really the same judgment, brought forward in time. God did something similar for Old Testament saints, forgiving their sins due to Christ even though Jesus hadn't actually died and risen yet. God is not bound by time, which can make the cause-and-effect a little confusing from our perspective at times. I'll refer to you again to 2 Peter 2:4, in which the demons are kept in gloomy chains even though Judgment Day has not arrived.

[mrsticky005]

Hell is a bringing forward of the actual final judgment. That's why all the people who receive the Lake of Fire also receive Hell: It's really the same judgment, brought forward in time. God did something similar for Old Testament saints, forgiving their sins due to Christ even though Jesus hadn't actually died and risen yet. God is not bound by time, which can make the cause-and-effect a little confusing from our perspective at times. I'll refer to you again to 2 Peter 2:4, in which the demons are kept in gloomy chains even though Judgment Day has not arrived.

So hell=lake of fire?

[RBerman]

So hell=lake of fire?

As I said a few posts ago, "Hell is sometimes used loosely as a general term for the experience of God's wrath in the afterlife. Technically, "Hell" (from Hebrew Sheol) is the "place" where the damned are tormented prior to the final resurrection and judgment. After that judgment, Revelation tells us that "Hades" (presumably the same as Sheol) is thrown into the Lake of Fire where Satan is tormented forever, and that the damned are placed there too."

So people speaking loosely often say "Hell" when "Lake of Fire" would technically be more appropriate. But those who go to the former before Judgment Day also end up in the latter after the actual judgment.

[apostoli]

As I said a few posts ago, "Hell is sometimes used loosely as a general term for the experience of God's wrath in the afterlife. Technically, "Hell" (from Hebrew Sheol) is the "place" where the damned are tormented prior to the final resurrection and judgment. After that judgment, Revelation tells us that "Hades" (presumably the same as Sheol) is thrown into the Lake of Fire where Satan is tormented forever, and that the damned are placed there too."

So people speaking loosely often say "Hell" when "Lake of Fire" would technically be more appropriate. But those who go to the former before Judgment Day also end up in the latter after the actual judgment.

Berman,

you are showing your ignorance. In the OT Sheol is never depicted as a place of torment, it is depicted as merely the locality where both the righteous and unrighteous go when they die - and in that place they have, according to the OT, no conciousness....

Daniel 12:2 tells us that only some will be resurrected....

Is ALL scripture inpired by God or only the bits that you agree with?

[RBerman]

you are showing your ignorance. In the OT Sheol is never depicted as a place of torment, it is depicted as merely the locality where both the righteous and unrighteous go when they die - and in that place they have, according to the OT, no conciousness....

I was speaking of the etymology of the English word "Hell." I agree that the OT does not speak specifically of torment in Hell the way Jesus speaks of torment in Hades. Sheol is a general term meaning "to be dead."

Daniel 12:2 tells us that only some will be resurrected....

It does not. It says that number resurrected will be large. It does not address whether that large number leaves others non-resurrected.

Is ALL scripture inpired by God or only the bits that you agree with?

There is no part of Scripture with which I disagree.

[John M.]

Sorry guys, been away for a while….

“R”, previously I had written to you that:

Revelation 20:14 says: “Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”
And …Revelation 21:4 says: “And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death.”
And…Whatever definition you may want to use for death… Scripture says that eventually it (death) will “be no more”.
You responded by writing…

That verse is speaking of God's people. The situation of the damned had been dealt with previously.

But that is exactly my position, the damned are (were, will be?) already experiencing “death” (whatever definition you wish to use). If it (death) is eternal life in torture, then it hasn’t been done away with.You may have not fully grasped my position in its entirety.
Why is God telling the righteous (saved) that there is NO MORE DEATH? There never was “death” for them as far as they were concerned. The point I was making was that DEATH (eternal torment death) or DEATH (cessation death) is said to be “no more”. If Eternal Life is given to the saved, then telling those who have eternal life that there is no more death for them is redundant. God is making a flat out statement. “…there shall be NO MORE DEATH!” Period. For anyone. Death is “killed”. It is thrown into the Lake of Fire and it is “no more”. If death is death (cessation) than that fits these verses far better than death (continuing to be)… since “continuing to be” contradicts “it will be no more”. In other words while God is saying “there is no more death”, death is happening?

You also wrote:
In brief, you make the unwarranted assumption that annihilation best satisfies the condition of "death," as opposed to "life" being the experience of the eternal favor of God, and thus "death" being the experience of the eternal wrath of God
I can’t see how you determine that my position above springs from an “unwarranted assumption”?

However here is a true unwarranted assumption –

My argument is pretty straightforward. From Genesis 3 onward, "death" does not mean the cessation of all awareness or existence. Rather, it's a state of judgment entailing separation from God's favor and inability to please God. Physical death is a symptom of that state.

That was written by you.

Read Psalm 37:20 - But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away

Doesn’t seem like the wicked are experiencing life to me. Seems like death means death here… and we are past Genesis 3…

On a side note –

“Physical death is a symptom of that state”.

I don’t think your assertion is true. Once we are saved by Christ we are no longer in a state of judgment nor are we separated from God’s favor nor are we unable to please God… yet we still experience physical death.

John M.

[Timothy]

Eternal Torment in hell is not a biblical doctrine.

The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever.
They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.
Here is the scriptural proof backing up what I am saying.

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
2 for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.

[RBerman]

Tell me truthfully Timothy: Did you cut and paste all those verses from somewhere en masse?

[Timothy]

Tell me truthfully Timothy: Did you cut and paste all those verses from somewhere en masse?

Yes, But I collected them all myself. I've been banned from another forum.
Do you know Timothew from other forums? I'm him.

[Timothy]

All of the insightful comments (between the verses that say there is no eternal torment in hell) are mine as well.