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    tWebber Pentecost's Avatar
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    "Radical Muslim"

    Unless things have changed the only Muslim here is Siam, so hi old friend! I want to know how you feel about the contrast between peaceful "moderate" Muslims and violent "radical" Muslims, and that common narrative in the West is that moderates are the super majority and radicals make up perhaps 1%.

    Especially in light of Pew Research, summarized here in video form, on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg
    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

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    tWebber
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    Hello.....its been a while...

    Video----I would say, if that kind of logic is used, all of humanity is radical...

    IMO, some Western people have a propensity to label and divide---especially human beings. There also seems to be an inclination towards binary thinking so that if one is "x" it automatically means the person is not "y". The paradigm is either/or, black and white....this makes for such a simplistic, shallow outlook that meaningful, nuanced and sophisticated discussion is likely out of the question....?.....

    To the person in the video making the claims---my response----If one is to decide on criminality of a person---the generally accepted practice is that a person is innocent until proven guilty. If I, a Muslim, have harmed another in a violent criminal activity---and evidence in a court of law proclaims me guilty---then by all means label me a criminal---but if that is not the case---then to call me radical, violent, extremist, criminal, terrorist---etc is a disservice to me and a defamation of my character---is it not?

    When it comes to "freedom of speech" in Islam---rights are constrained by responsibility. The right to speak of one person is constrained by the responsibility to not harm another person.

    Here is advice from the Quran

    Sahih International: And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say [words of] peace,
    Pickthall: The (faithful) slaves of the Beneficent are they who walk upon the earth modestly, and when the foolish ones address them answer: Peace;
    Yusuf Ali: And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!";

    Surah 49 verse 12, 13 also offer good advice

    12. O you who beleive! Avoid suspicion as much as possible: for suspicion in some cases is a sin:
    and spy not on each other,
    nor speak ill of each other behind their backs
    would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother?
    no you would abhor it.
    Fear God: for God is oft returning, most merciful
    13. O mankind! We created you from a single pair of male and female
    and made you unto nations and tribes, that you may know each other
    (not that you may despise each other)
    surely the most honored of you in the sight of God
    is he who is the most righteous of you.
    And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pentecost View Post
    Unless things have changed the only Muslim here is Siam, so hi old friend! I want to know how you feel about the contrast between peaceful "moderate" Muslims and violent "radical" Muslims, and that common narrative in the West is that moderates are the super majority and radicals make up perhaps 1%.

    Especially in light of Pew Research, summarized here in video form, on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg
    I did a study of the number of radical Muslims about a year ago. I used 3 different sources.

    Percentage of Radical Muslims:

    Estimates range from 7% to 25%

    Based on 1.5 Billion Muslims = 75 million

    Based on 1.5 Billion Muslims = 375 million

    From Brigitte Gabriel:

    I looked up Brigitte Gabriel to find her credentials. "Ms. Gabriel is one of the leading national security experts in the world providing information and analysis on the rise of Islamic terrorism."

    15% to 25% Radicals

    Based on 1.2 Billion Muslims, that is 180 million to 300 million.

    The numbers would be higher if based on 1.9 million Muslims.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Hello.....its been a while...

    Video----I would say, if that kind of logic is used, all of humanity is radical...

    IMO, some Western people have a propensity to label and divide---especially human beings. There also seems to be an inclination towards binary thinking so that if one is "x" it automatically means the person is not "y". The paradigm is either/or, black and white....this makes for such a simplistic, shallow outlook that meaningful, nuanced and sophisticated discussion is likely out of the question....?.....

    To the person in the video making the claims---my response----If one is to decide on criminality of a person---the generally accepted practice is that a person is innocent until proven guilty. If I, a Muslim, have harmed another in a violent criminal activity---and evidence in a court of law proclaims me guilty---then by all means label me a criminal---but if that is not the case---then to call me radical, violent, extremist, criminal, terrorist---etc is a disservice to me and a defamation of my character---is it not?

    When it comes to "freedom of speech" in Islam---rights are constrained by responsibility. The right to speak of one person is constrained by the responsibility to not harm another person.

    Here is advice from the Quran

    Sahih International: And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say [words of] peace,
    Pickthall: The (faithful) slaves of the Beneficent are they who walk upon the earth modestly, and when the foolish ones address them answer: Peace;
    Yusuf Ali: And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!";

    Surah 49 verse 12, 13 also offer good advice

    12. O you who beleive! Avoid suspicion as much as possible: for suspicion in some cases is a sin:
    and spy not on each other,
    nor speak ill of each other behind their backs
    would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother?
    no you would abhor it.
    Fear God: for God is oft returning, most merciful
    13. O mankind! We created you from a single pair of male and female
    and made you unto nations and tribes, that you may know each other
    (not that you may despise each other)
    surely the most honored of you in the sight of God
    is he who is the most righteous of you.
    And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)
    The video makes an excellent point -- it's not what the Bible, for example, teaches as opposed to the Quran -- it's what the adherents actually practice. There was quite a bit of violence in the OT, but it's incredibly rare - and makes big news - when a Christian tries to practice that kind of lifestyle.

    Doing a little bit of selective Quaran quoting doesn't negate the facts presented in the video.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  5. Amen Christian3, Pentecost amen'd this post.
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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    When it comes to "freedom of speech" in Islam---rights are constrained by responsibility. The right to speak of one person is constrained by the responsibility to not harm another person.
    islam-behead.jpg

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  7. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Pentecost's Avatar
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    Thank you for the feedback, as a follow up question, based off what you said about simplistic binaries, I take it that you consider the moderate/radical binary distinction to be unhelpful? Do you think there is a spectrum between moderate and radical, or do you dismiss those categories as invalid?
    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pentecost View Post
    Thank you for the feedback, as a follow up question, based off what you said about simplistic binaries, I take it that you consider the moderate/radical binary distinction to be unhelpful? Do you think there is a spectrum between moderate and radical, or do you dismiss those categories as invalid?
    Distinctions and labels are useful---language is made up of labels and distinctions and without them we would not be able to communicate or understand. But we must also keep in mind that propaganda is also made with language---the difference is, language that is used to clarify, enhances our knowledge, but language that is used to deceive, exploits our emotions and our souls. People and groups associated with propaganda are known---just google it. The choice between self-deception and knowledge is our own....we cannot blame anyone else for it.

    If a "moderate" is understood to be an average person who goes along with the status quo, then radical can mean one who pushes for change.
    One meaning of radical is---
    advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social change; representing or supporting an extreme or progressive section of a political party.
    "a radical American activist"
    synonyms: revolutionary, progressive, reformist, revisionist, progressivist; More
    antonyms: reactionary, moderate, conservative


    Most of humanity is "moderate"---that is, we just prefer to live our lives as best we can, and that generally means leaving things as they are, so we can mind our own business. There are a few who are radicals (as per above definition) who bring about change, such as Buddha, Jesus, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Robespierre...etc. Social change can sometimes bring about chaos which can lead to violence and bloodshed. Whether this change is beneficial or harmful depends on if it brings about oppression or justice. ---most times it is hard to classify---because social change can bring benefits and privileges for a majority but oppression and injustice for an ignored minority....or privileges and entitlements for a powerful minority and oppression and injustice for a helpless majority. Reality is rarely a simplistic black/white binary---it is complex.

    So far, we have been talking about "radical" in terms of social change---but there is another kind of "radical"---one who tries to bring about spiritual change. Many of the Sages, Prophets and Wisdom teachers try to combine both social and spiritual change---as this is of most benefit to humanity.

    So how does all this relate to Muslims? My opinion, in subjectively looking at (Islamic) history, is that there are 3 general areas in which change can/has occur/ed---Power structures (governing structures, influence systems...etc), Values (ethics/morality, laws), Ideas (philosophy, spirituality, religion...etc)....These categories are not isolated groups but are intertwined so that changes in one area can affect other areas....
    Today, with the internet and globalization---changes are occurring everywhere in these categories....but it is not one kind of change---each country has its own unique circumstances and changes....as mentioned---reality is complex.

    If I were to broadly categorize the mix of Muslim people into groups in a country, I would say there are probably 3 major categories, 1) Mystics, (Sufi) 2) Mainstream, (Shia/Sunni) 3) Exclusivist. (Purists)

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Most of humanity is "moderate"---that is, we just prefer to live our lives as best we can, and that generally means leaving things as they are, so we can mind our own business.
    Would a "moderate" Muslim tolerate a Christian Church in their neighborhood?
    How many 'Mulsim majority countries' encourage or allow other faiths to build or maintain places of worship of God (not Allah)?

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  11. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  12. #9
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Would a "moderate" Muslim tolerate a Christian Church in their neighborhood?
    How many 'Mulsim majority countries' encourage or allow other faiths to build or maintain places of worship of God (not Allah)?
    There are different types of Muslims to consider according to former Muslim Gabriel.

    Ordinary Muslims

    Ordinary Muslims practice some of the teachings of Islam, but they donít want to do anything difficult, like participate in jihad. They are more interested in having nice lives, providing for their children and running their businesses. They are Muslims because of their culture and tradition rather than because of strong religious beliefs.

    Most of the Muslims in the United States are ordinary Muslims. Some even send their children to Christian schools. Even in the Middle East there are more ordinary Muslims than committed Muslims. It would take time and motivation to turn ordinary Muslims into committed Muslims.

    From the point of view of a committed Muslim, this group should be referred to as secular Muslims because they are not submitting wholly to Islam.

    Committed Muslims

    Committed Muslims are making great efforts to live according to Islam. They are praying five times a day (which can take 2 Ĺ hours per day), giving alms and fasting all food and water during daylight hours of the month of Ramadan. A committed Muslim may not be in a radical group like Hamas, but he could choose to cross that line at any time that he feels his religion or people are threatened.

    Orthodox Muslims

    A subset of committed Muslims is the orthodox Muslims. Not only do orthodox Muslims want to follow the requirements of Islam, but they also want to do it in the same way as Muhammad did in the seventh century. They spend much time reading the Quran and Islamic books. Following the Quran and hadith, they may put severe restrictions on women. In Islamic countries, orthodox Muslims may choose to grow out their beards, but in the West they may not look different from other Muslims.

    Sufites

    This is the first sect in Islam that tried to transfer the meaning of jihad from spreading Islam with the sword to a spiritual struggle to fight evil within oneself. Sufism started six centuries after Muhammadís death. Only 2 to 3 percent of Muslims worldwide are Sufites. Orthodox Muslims and fanatic Muslims reject them and do not consider them to be true Muslims.

    Fanatic Muslims

    These are committed Muslims who put their words into action. They are the types of people who join militant groups such as Hamas or work with al-Qaeda. They are ready to practice jihad (to kill or be killed in the name of Islam).
    How to Tell the Difference

    After the September 11 attacks, you could identify the different types of Muslims according to their reactions. The ordinary Muslims were pretty quiet. In the United States, they were even hanging American flags on their houses and showing support for the United States.

    The committed Muslims were demonstrating in the streets in support of al-Qaeda. Their imams were praising the bravery of Osama bin Laden and his network.

    The fanatic Muslims were taking their joy a step beyond talk. They were planning new attacks, such as the kidnapping and murder of journalist Daniel Pearl in February 2002. A year and a half after September 11, they were able to orchestrate major new bombings against Western targets overseas (including bombings in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia in May 2003).

    What Do These Categories Mean?

    These categories mean that not all Muslims have the same level of knowledge and commitment. Some ordinary Muslims do not even know about many things that are in the Quran and Islamic history about Muhammad.

    Committed and fanatic Muslims often have a very clear understanding of the teachings of Islam. They use the Quran and the example of Muhammad and the early Muslims as a blueprint for their attitudes and actions today.

    Not all Muslims are terrorists and not all terrorists are Muslims.
    Dr Gabriel's credentials:

    Bachelor's, master's, and doctorate degrees in Islamic History and Culture from Al-Azhar University, Cairo, Egypt, Graduating second in his class of six thousand students for his bachelor's degree. This ranking was based on cumulative scores or oral and written exams given at the end of each school year, One of the youngest lecturers ever hired at Al-Azhar University. He started lecturing after he finished his master's degree and was working to finish his doctorate, Traveling lecturer. The university sent him to countries around the Middle East as a lecturer in Islamic history, Served as the imam at a mosque in the Cairo suburbs, Later Gabriel became a Christian and pursued a Christian education which include: Discipleship Training School with Youth With A Mission in Cape Town, South Africa, Master's degree in World Religion from Florida Christian University in Orlando, Florida (2001), Doctorate degree in Christian Education from Florida Christian University in Orland, Florida (2002), Induction as a fellow in the Oxford Society of Scholars, September 2003.

  13. Amen Pentecost, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  14. #10
    tWebber
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    "There are different types of Muslims to consider according to former Muslim Gabriel."

    The information is incorrect.

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