Originally posted by One Bad Pig
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I took communion for the first time ever.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostThat implies that baptism has a part in salvation.
Which it does not.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostTypically baptist churches teach one should be baptized [immersed - buried with Jesus (Romans 6:4)] before one participates in the Lord's supper - communion[the remembrance of His death(1 Corinthians 11:26)]. In a typical baptist open communion service it is stated one should be a baptized [immersed] believer before partaking communion.When I Survey....
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Originally posted by TheWall View PostMe and my grandpatents went to a local church service. It was great. Took communion. Afterword talked to the preacher and I told them about J.P. Holdings ministry, and my jouney so far. The guy even reccomended a book by Watchman Nee. Good day.
As others have said now you need to get baptized. Whether you do it by sprinkling or immersion isn't nearly as important as getting it done.
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It was a common belief in the early church that baptism was an absolute requirement for salvation (exceptions being allowed for situations like the thief on the cross, etc.) Without actually taking a firm stance on that, I find it telling that the eunuch in Acts wanted to be baptized immediately upon conversion."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by OBPYes and no. The thief on the cross who acknowledged Jesus as Lord wasn't baptized. On the other hand, the Lord commanded that His disciples be baptized. If one is not willing to be baptized, how can one be saved?
You said that "it was enough that he wanted to be saved".
Baptism BEFORE salvation is not efficacious for salvation to any extent. Proof of that is millions of Catholics (and other denominations) who were baptized as babies and live lives of disobedience to God's word.
Wanting to be saved and then being baptized in no way shows a death and resurrection with Christ, which baptism is symbolic of. Scripture may not have elaborated on the jailer's heart condition when he was baptized, but I would guarantee that it was past the point of "wanting to be saved".
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThat would be great if salvation were a point and not a process. I don't recall, e.g., that Paul required the Philippian jailer to "know he was saved" prior to baptism. It was enough that he wanted to be saved.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostThat implies that baptism has a part in salvation. Which it does not.
οκτω ψυχαι διεσωθησαν δι υδατος 21 ο αντιτυπον νυν και ημας σωζει βαπτισμα
eight souls were saved through the water that antitypal now also us saves baptism.
antitypal: nominative adjective (describing "as a mark left by pressing into," as of a signet into wax :a photographic print developed from a negative would also be an antitype)
That: reflexive pronoun = water
The negative is saving eight souls through water.
the print is "that (water) now saves us"
but not because it washes dirt from the body: because of the appeal of a clean conscience toward God.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostHow does that square with Baptism saves you (1 Peter 3:21b-22) - a fact that even Calvin acknowledged.
οκτω ψυχαι διεσωθησαν δι υδατος 21 ο αντιτυπον νυν και ημας σωζει βαπτισμα
eight souls were saved through the water that antitypal now also us saves baptism.
antitypal: nominative adjective (describing "as a mark left by pressing into," as of a signet into wax :a photographic print developed from a negative would also be an antitype)
That: reflexive pronoun = water
The negative is saving eight souls through water.
the print is "that (water) now saves us"
but not because it washes dirt from the body: because of the appeal of a clean conscience toward God.
"Baptism now saves you THROUGH the resurrection of Jesus Christ" just as the ark brought 8 people through the flood.
It's the resurrection of Christ that is the saving factor, not the water.
If we want to continue this discussion perhaps we should do it elsewhere than TW's happy communion thread.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThat would be great if salvation were a point and not a process. I don't recall, e.g., that Paul required the Philippian jailer to "know he was saved" prior to baptism. It was enough that he wanted to be saved.
Acts 16:25 [ESV] About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.
The jailer asked what he must do to be saved, and Paul replied "believe in the Lord Jesus" - not "be baptized".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostLet's rely on scripture rather than your recollection....
Acts 16:25 [ESV] About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.
The jailer asked what he must do to be saved, and Paul replied "believe in the Lord Jesus" - not "be baptized".Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostOne can be saved and still be disobedient in many things.This sort of undercuts your later argument.
The Lord is always working in us to produce evidence of our salvation, which baptism and the taking of communion are. If one is saved, then baptism and communion ARE to be partaken of, as acts of obedience.
You said that "it was enough that he wanted to be saved".
Baptism BEFORE salvation is not efficacious for salvation to any extent. Proof of that is millions of Catholics (and other denominations) who were baptized as babies and live lives of disobedience to God's word.
Wanting to be saved and then being baptized in no way shows a death and resurrection with Christ, which baptism is symbolic of.What then does baptism show? Rom. 8:14 and Col. 2:11-13 are pretty clear on that.
Scripture may not have elaborated on the jailer's heart condition when he was baptized, but I would guarantee that it was past the point of "wanting to be saved".Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by OBPthat baptism is expected of those who are saved.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThis sort of undercuts your later argument.
Yes, though again I'd qualify it as "if one is being saved...."
To be baptized, yes.
Didn't you start off by saying that one can be disobedient in many things and yet still be saved? In any case, billions of baptized infants have grown up and lived lives of obedience as well. Infants are baptized to show that they are members of the church, in accordance with Paul's teaching (1 Cor 7:14).
What then does baptism show? Rom. 8:14 and Col. 2:11-13 are pretty clear on that.
I don't know about you, but I hope to never get beyond that point. If I no longer want to be saved, then I am no longer saved.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostSo then. Jesus + baptism = salvation?
Jesus + baptism doesn't save. The water in itself is ineffectual, but through the words of Jesus it becomes an instrument of salvation where the Holy Spirit works.
Jesus saves through baptism done in faith. I.e He is doing all the work in the baptism, we're simply getting water sprinkled on us, and some words said about/to us.
Or atleast, that's what we Lutherans believe.Last edited by JonathanL; 05-22-2017, 10:47 PM.
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