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Thread: I took communion for the first time ever.

  1. #21
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBP
    Yes and no. The thief on the cross who acknowledged Jesus as Lord wasn't baptized. On the other hand, the Lord commanded that His disciples be baptized. If one is not willing to be baptized, how can one be saved?
    One can be saved and still be disobedient in many things. The Lord is always working in us to produce evidence of our salvation, which baptism and the taking of communion are. If one is saved, then baptism and communion ARE to be partaken of, as acts of obedience.


    You said that "it was enough that he wanted to be saved".

    Baptism BEFORE salvation is not efficacious for salvation to any extent. Proof of that is millions of Catholics (and other denominations) who were baptized as babies and live lives of disobedience to God's word.

    Wanting to be saved and then being baptized in no way shows a death and resurrection with Christ, which baptism is symbolic of. Scripture may not have elaborated on the jailer's heart condition when he was baptized, but I would guarantee that it was past the point of "wanting to be saved".


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  2. #22
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    That would be great if salvation were a point and not a process. I don't recall, e.g., that Paul required the Philippian jailer to "know he was saved" prior to baptism. It was enough that he wanted to be saved.
    Salvation has a beginning though. "I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved." The process is at work in me.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  3. Amen mossrose, Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  4. #23
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    That implies that baptism has a part in salvation. Which it does not.
    How does that square with Baptism saves you (1 Peter 3:21b-22) - a fact that even Calvin acknowledged.

    οκτω ψυχαι διεσωθησαν δι υδατος 21 ο αντιτυπον νυν και ημας σωζει βαπτισμα
    eight souls were saved through the water that antitypal now also us saves baptism.
    antitypal: nominative adjective (describing "as a mark left by pressing into," as of a signet into wax :a photographic print developed from a negative would also be an antitype)

    That: reflexive pronoun = water
    The negative is saving eight souls through water.
    the print is "that (water) now saves us"
    but not because it washes dirt from the body: because of the appeal of a clean conscience toward God.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  5. #24
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    How does that square with Baptism saves you (1 Peter 3:21b-22) - a fact that even Calvin acknowledged.

    οκτω ψυχαι διεσωθησαν δι υδατος 21 ο αντιτυπον νυν και ημας σωζει βαπτισμα
    eight souls were saved through the water that antitypal now also us saves baptism.
    antitypal: nominative adjective (describing "as a mark left by pressing into," as of a signet into wax :a photographic print developed from a negative would also be an antitype)

    That: reflexive pronoun = water
    The negative is saving eight souls through water.
    the print is "that (water) now saves us"
    but not because it washes dirt from the body: because of the appeal of a clean conscience toward God.
    So then. Jesus + baptism = salvation?

    "Baptism now saves you THROUGH the resurrection of Jesus Christ" just as the ark brought 8 people through the flood.

    It's the resurrection of Christ that is the saving factor, not the water.



    If we want to continue this discussion perhaps we should do it elsewhere than TW's happy communion thread.


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  6. #25
    Dept. of Redundancy Dept. Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    That would be great if salvation were a point and not a process. I don't recall, e.g., that Paul required the Philippian jailer to "know he was saved" prior to baptism. It was enough that he wanted to be saved.
    Let's rely on scripture rather than your recollection....

    Acts 16:25 [ESV] About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.


    The jailer asked what he must do to be saved, and Paul replied "believe in the Lord Jesus" - not "be baptized".

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  7. Amen Jedidiah, mossrose, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  8. #26
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Let's rely on scripture rather than your recollection....

    Acts 16:25 [ESV] About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.


    The jailer asked what he must do to be saved, and Paul replied "believe in the Lord Jesus" - not "be baptized".
    Yet they were baptized immediately. Be careful here, that you do not drive a wedge between Paul's gospel and Peter's gospel. Jesus commanded that His disciples be baptized (Mt. 28:18-20). Peter, when preaching at Pentecost, when asked what must be done, said, "Repent, and be baptized...." (Acts 2:38). When the Samaritans believed, they were baptized, as was the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8). When Cornelius believed, he was baptized (Acts 10). Paul himself was baptized, in order that his sins be washed away (Acts 22:16)! I could also point to Mark 16:16, which I suspect you accept as scripture. I could point to more examples in Acts, but I think you get the picture. You are arguing from silence here. Luke is summarizing heavily, and he makes it clear elsewhere that baptism is expected of those who are saved.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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  9. Amen KingsGambit, Chrawnus amen'd this post.
  10. #27
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    One can be saved and still be disobedient in many things.
    This sort of undercuts your later argument.
    The Lord is always working in us to produce evidence of our salvation, which baptism and the taking of communion are. If one is saved, then baptism and communion ARE to be partaken of, as acts of obedience.
    Yes, though again I'd qualify it as "if one is being saved...."
    You said that "it was enough that he wanted to be saved".
    To be baptized, yes.
    Baptism BEFORE salvation is not efficacious for salvation to any extent. Proof of that is millions of Catholics (and other denominations) who were baptized as babies and live lives of disobedience to God's word.
    Didn't you start off by saying that one can be disobedient in many things and yet still be saved? In any case, billions of baptized infants have grown up and lived lives of obedience as well. Infants are baptized to show that they are members of the church, in accordance with Paul's teaching (1 Cor 7:14).
    Wanting to be saved and then being baptized in no way shows a death and resurrection with Christ, which baptism is symbolic of.
    What then does baptism show? Rom. 8:14 and Col. 2:11-13 are pretty clear on that.
    Scripture may not have elaborated on the jailer's heart condition when he was baptized, but I would guarantee that it was past the point of "wanting to be saved".
    I don't know about you, but I hope to never get beyond that point. If I no longer want to be saved, then I am no longer saved.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  11. Amen Chrawnus amen'd this post.
  12. #28
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBP
    that baptism is expected of those who are saved.
    Neither CP nor I are arguing anything other than that.


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  13. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  14. #29
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    This sort of undercuts your later argument.

    Yes, though again I'd qualify it as "if one is being saved...."

    To be baptized, yes.

    Didn't you start off by saying that one can be disobedient in many things and yet still be saved? In any case, billions of baptized infants have grown up and lived lives of obedience as well. Infants are baptized to show that they are members of the church, in accordance with Paul's teaching (1 Cor 7:14).

    What then does baptism show? Rom. 8:14 and Col. 2:11-13 are pretty clear on that.

    I don't know about you, but I hope to never get beyond that point. If I no longer want to be saved, then I am no longer saved.
    It appears that you and I are talking past each other, as usual. Probably not really disagreeing, just having trouble saying what I want to say.



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  15. #30
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    So then. Jesus + baptism = salvation?


    Jesus + baptism doesn't save. The water in itself is ineffectual, but through the words of Jesus it becomes an instrument of salvation where the Holy Spirit works.

    Jesus saves through baptism done in faith. I.e He is doing all the work in the baptism, we're simply getting water sprinkled on us, and some words said about/to us.

    Or atleast, that's what we Lutherans believe.
    Last edited by Chrawnus; 05-23-2017 at 04:47 AM.

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