Presbyterian Church (USA) Votes to Allow Gay Clergy

[Rdr. Arsenios]

No. You know that.

Had I known, I would not have asked...

If this is the only question, then we disagree on everything.

The question concerned the issue of the open practicing of sexual deviancy in the clergy of the Church.

Men having sex with dead porcupines...
Men having sex with living horses...
Men having sex with men...

I shudder at the thought the Christianity has been reduced to rejecting gay sex.

Christianity cannot embrace the practicing of gay sex in its Clergy...
This is NOT the Faith of our Fathers...
Indeed, the Fathers of the Church, including the Apostle Paul, teach that even the practice of sex within marriage between a man and his wife is to be restricted...
There is NO Biblical or Patristic endorsement of homosexual relations in the history of Christianity, let alone in the clergy, except now in the demonic takeover of the Presbyterian Church, following the similarly demonic takeover of the Episcopalian Church...

When the greater part of the Church leadership fell into heresy, the Arians, the Iconoclasts, it matters not, the people just went about their business as the faithful do, and they were pursued, and killed, in the Churches even - They were forced to confess what was false, and their holy things, the icons, were destroyed... They died without complaint - They would not compromise the Faith given once, for all, to the Apostles...

The fact that none of the Presbyterians are willing to oppose this evil with their lives condemns the Presbyterian Church...

When the secular demonic forces marshal themselves against the Orthodox Faith, as even now they are preparing to do, you will bear witness to what happens, for we will not stop our witness to the Faith, and that witness is martyrdom...

You are witnessing, btw, the final collapse of the Apostacy of Rome in her illegitimate children of the Reformation... Indeed, you are a part of it...

Gays have always been an important part of the Church, but in repentance from their deviance...
Likewise those who have desired all manner of other sexual deviances...
Christ has delivered them from these...
But only in His Body...

Are you really endorsing actively deviant Presbyterian clergy?

Do you not regard homosexuality as deviant sexuality by God's standards?

What about the pastor who likes other deviant sexual behaviors?

You gonna keep him in close contact with your children?

You gonna tell them that it's ONLY his own personal business?

Don't you even care that children are led by example?

Personal desire for deviant sexual practices is to be overcome in the Church...
And the Clergy, who HAVE ALREADY OVERCOME such passions,
Are the ones with the responsibility to lead those who have not overcome them
So that they too can overcome them...

Don't you agree?

And no, we do NOT judge people caught in such deviances...
We simply disciple them HOW to live Christian lives...
And overcome perverted desires...

Arsenios

[Kelp]

The fact that none of the Presbyterians are willing to oppose this evil with their lives condemns the Presbyterian Church...

When the secular demonic forces marshal themselves against the Orthodox Faith, as even now they are preparing to do, you will bear witness to what happens, for we will not stop our witness to the Faith, and that witness is martyrdom...

George, I didn't want to go here, but I've had it up to here with your high horse.

www.pokrov.org Take a look, take a good long perusal.

Especially where it says,

This section provides the materials that can be used to teach the Orthodox both that abuse occurs, and that we have no right to point any fingers at our Roman brethren.

http://pokrov.org/displays.asp?ds=Person

And especially, http://pokrov.org/guidelines.asp (emphasis theirs)

If criminal activity of any kind (i.e.: threat of violence and physical assault, sexual assault, rape, sex with minors, etc.) is involved, you must go directly to the civil authorities. Do not go to your church officials first.

We recommend that you do not sign a gag order, secrecy clause, or confidentiality agreement, despite the pressure they may put on you to do so.

We have not heard of one case where the church has responded appropriately after hearing from a victim. Also, your family and community may shun you, blame you or not believe you. You may be demonized and told you are hurting the church. You may be told that you are gossiping and judgmental or crazy. Every victim, including us that work at Pokrov, has experienced the pain of the community's anger. Do not meet with the church officials or your abuser alone!

"Martyrdom," you say? Where, exactly?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

George, I didn't want to go here, but I've had it up to here with your high horse.

www.pokrov.org Take a look, take a good long perusal.

Especially where it says, http://pokrov.org/displays.asp?ds=Person

And especially, http://pokrov.org/guidelines.asp (emphasis theirs)



"Martyrdom," you say? Where, exactly?

There are sins galore in the Orthodox Faith, and among its clergy... The fact that many of these sins are in the arena of sexual deviance is not in question at all... You will find homosexual, heterosexual, and all other manner of sexual deviant behavior... But what you will NOT find is ANY official Church sanction of these sins in its clergy... If you want to be having sex with thirsty camels, don't try to become a priest in the Orthodox Faith...

And yes, some make it in, and some, as happened with Rome, are shielded from legal consequences, and horrible crimes are committed and covered up... All that can be found...

They are all, as well, forbidden by Canon Law...

The high horse I am on is canonical - IF the Orthodox Church should EVER officially give sanction to sexual deviance in Her clergy, there will be hell to pay... And that does not mean if an openly gay man is ordained to the priesthood, for such an event is well within the sinfulness of some members of the Church, but if the Canons are denied and abandoned, and the Church opens Her doors officially to ordinations of sexually deviant priests and deacons, then look out...

There is no shortage of sin in the Orthodox Church, trust me... But it lives pretty much in hiding... And causes all manner of suffering...

That Pokrov website, btw, is a very valuable Orthodox site, that simply reports complaints and charges, without themselves verifying their veracity... As such, it is in a wonderful position to help victims of clerical abuse, for it is only reporting what is reported, and not thereby subject to libel charges... They are a key element in suppressing abuse here in the US...

I think they do some investigations as well, but I am not familiar with them

... Criminal actions by anyone, clergy or lay, should be first reported to the police... The Church should never be available to be used as a shield for criminal activity...

God bless this site!

And the Orthodox are just as capable of covering up clerical crimes as anyone else...

Arsenios

[Kelp]

IF the Orthodox Church should EVER officially give sanction to sexual deviance in Her clergy, there will be hell to pay... And that does not mean if an openly gay man is ordained to the priesthood, for such an event is well within the sinfulness of some members of the Church, but if the Canons are denied and abandoned, and the Church opens Her doors officially to ordinations of sexually deviant priests and deacons, then look out...

That's kind of a distinction without a difference, wouldn't you say? Bishops in the Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Orthodox churches have all sheltered sex offenders from the law. Yet just because the Orthodox Church hasn't said gay clergy are now canonically allowed you spare them your "your church is dead" jeremiad? I think you're being a wee short-sighted. "Physician, heal theyself," comes to mind.

Thank you for your awareness of the problem though. I get the sense that most non-catholics are totally in denial that this is an issue that touches every denomination (or at least almost every).

May God have mercy on us all.

[hedrick]

Thank you for your awareness of the problem though. I get the sense that most non-catholics are totally in denial that this is an issue that touches every denomination (or at least almost every).

The PCUSA is no more perfect than anyone else. But we have had policies in effect for several years to deal with this. We definitely don't think we're immune, nor act like it. However I would be very surprised if any bishops in the PCUSA have sheltered anyone :-)

[Kelp]

Good. Everybody's got all kinds of policies, the key is whether individual administrators stick to them.

[Little Shepherd]

That's kind of a distinction without a difference, wouldn't you say? Bishops in the Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Orthodox churches have all sheltered sex offenders from the law. Yet just because the Orthodox Church hasn't said gay clergy are now canonically allowed you spare them your "your church is dead" jeremiad? I think you're being a wee short-sighted. "Physician, heal theyself," comes to mind.

I don't. His position has never been that such sins do not occur in the Orthodox Church. His point is that the OC has clear rules against such conduct and official procedures in place for dealing with such things when they come to light.

The Episcopal Church, on the other hand, no longer does(and in fact openly encourages people in all manners of sexual sin), and the PCUSA is edging closer to that point themselves.

There is a huge difference between "Yes, these things happen, but they are against the rules and are tragic when they occur" and "These things happen completely unopposed even when they are in the open."

[Kelp]

His point is that the OC has clear rules against such conduct and official procedures in place for dealing with such things when they come to light.

Sorry, we're miscommunicating. I'm talking about sex abuse in response to what I thought was his contention that the Orthodox rightly handle these matter's as opposed to the Catholics whom George earlier said were buckling under, "an invasion of pedophile priests."

If George's previous post was addressing homosexual clergy instead, then I misread him.

[Little Shepherd]

Sorry, we're miscommunicating. I'm talking about sex abuse in response to what I thought was his contention that the Orthodox rightly handle these matter's as opposed to the Catholics whom George earlier said were buckling under, "an invasion of pedophile priests."

Oh, I didn't see that. Yeah, regarding that the accusation is just plain false. I'm no fan of the RCC, and what happened was tragic, but calling it an "invasion of pedophile priests" is just plain false. This article goes into more detail, but suffice it to say that even at its worst the RCC clergy averaged a much lower rate of sexual abuse than the general population. What did happen should never have occurred, obviously, but exaggerating the numbers isn't helping anyone.

[Kelp]

but suffice it to say that even at its worst the RCC clergy averaged a much lower rate of sexual abuse than the general population.

And there's actually been more reports total among Protestants.

[maudman]

And there's actually been more reports total among Protestants.

It's nice to see someone with their eye's open Kelp... You're a good witness.. Open minded and you don't hastily jump to conclusions...

This whole thing is like the black death... It know's no boundries.. It never has... In the US the baptist alone don't report all their incidents and accourding to some insurance reports the baptist alone total more a year about 240 cases.. Where the RCC shows about 228 cases even those not credible which baptist don't show or keep record of... These number come from baptist websites... And they say only about 10 percent are accounted for... Thoses are just where legal action is recorded...

Your right in adding It may not matter what policies are in place, or how open our stance is? Most often churches silently get rid of or move around the criminals.... The highest numbers I've seen are in the newer bible churches/ evangelical movements.. Not pointing fingers at any one group... These are just statistics from Protestant sites... Truly the boby of Christ is suffering much tribulation in the CHristian community as a whole... Enjoy reading your Post...

[Kelp]

Open minded and you don't hastily jump to conclusions...

Oh, trust me, I have a history of jumping to all kinds of conclusions. Being clinically depressed helps.

I'm trying not to be too hasty now though. Thank you for your kindness.

[hedrick]

Your right in adding It may not matter what policies are in place, or how open our stance is? Most often churches silently get rid of or move around the criminals.... The highest numbers I've seen are in the newer bible churches/ evangelical movements.. Not pointing fingers at any one group... These are just statistics from Protestant sites... Truly the boby of Christ is suffering much tribulation in the CHristian community as a whole... Enjoy reading your Post...

I think this is a natural reaction. Both trying to avoid making waves, and to some extent a feeling that sexual issues are confidential, would tend to lead people not to do anything beyond getting rid of the problem. To go beyond I would think you'd most likely need to think about itt in advance, and have appropriate policies and procedures. Of course those aren't sufficient. There will still be plenty of reasons not to do anything.

[maudman]

Oh, trust me, I have a history of jumping to all kinds of conclusions. Being clinically depressed helps.

I'm trying not to be too hasty now though. Thank you for your kindness.

Well I haven't been around much lately, but from what I've read since visiting you seem level headed for the most part.. Your skin seems thicker than many or most at times.. We all at time are a little hasty in our conclusions..

Sometimes things just push the right buttons..."""" Being clinically depressed helps.."""" Yeah it probably does...

[maudman]

I think this is a natural reaction. Both trying to avoid making difficulty, and to some extent a feeling that sexual issues are confidential, would tend to lead people not to do anything beyond getting rid of the problem. To go beyond I would think you'd most likely need to think about itt in advance, and have appropriate policies and procedures. Of course those aren't sufficient. There will still be plenty of reasons not to do anything.

I think your reasoning is sound here... It's the subject matter itself... I don't mean to be vulger but the tainted goods syndrom seems to prevail... Everyone looses it seems to most...

There is no way it may seem, that makes you feel good about what your alternatives are to confront something that hurts so many in different ways... It's horrible...