Presbyterian Church (USA) Votes to Allow Gay Clergy

[Kelp]

I think this is a natural reaction. Both trying to avoid making waves, and to some extent a feeling that sexual issues are confidential, would tend to lead people not to do anything beyond getting rid of the problem. To go beyond I would think you'd most likely need to think about itt in advance, and have appropriate policies and procedures. Of course those aren't sufficient. There will still be plenty of reasons not to do anything.

That's a good point.

And then there is also the fact that even being accused of touching a kid can completely ruin lives, no chance of getting a good job, a good house, etc.

It's getting to the point that men often avoid secular child care fields like the plague. It's just too dangerous.

And then there's what might be called "Michael Jackson Syndrome." Churches are one of society's last acceptable targets and I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't cases of lawyers and parents just trying to make a quick buck.

[hedrick]

That's a good point.

And then there is also the fact that even being accused of touching a kid can completely ruin lives, no chance of getting a good job, a good house, etc.

It's getting to the point that men often avoid secular child care fields like the plague. It's just too dangerous.

And then there's what might be called "Michael Jackson Syndrome." Churches are one of society's last acceptable targets and I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't cases of lawyers and parents just trying to make a quick buck.

And it doesn't help that prosecutors have made some questionable decisions. If you check the registry of convicted sex offenders you may not be able to tell whether it's real abuse or two teen lovers that were victims of overzealous prosecution. This isn't a reason not to check. You have to, for both employees and volunteers, but if you find someone evaluating it could get exciting. Probably anyone who is on the registry should just commit suicide anyway...

Unfortunately life is rarely clear. It's quite possible for society to be both oversensitive and shockingly lax about the same thing.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I think your reasoning is sound here... It's the subject matter itself... I don't mean to be vulger but the tainted goods syndrom seems to prevail... Everyone looses it seems to most...

There is no way it may seem, that makes you feel good about what your alternatives are to confront something that hurts so many in different ways... It's horrible...

That might make a good thread - Dealing with sexual predators in church...

We had a level three registered sex offender, who sought out the Orthodox Faith, was catechized and baptized, and entered into a parish with children... Because he had confessed his crimes, and done his time, he welcomed signing an agreement with the Parish in which he agreed to obey without question any parishoner who may just not feel comfortable with any activity he might be participating in with the parish, and back off, or move off, or do or stop doing whatever he was told... He has passed on now... God bless him... It worked...

There may be other success stories... As well as failed ones... The not confessed predators are simply hard to deal with... They are not seeking help...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Probably anyone who is on the registry should just commit suicide anyway...

Unfortunately life is rarely clear. It's quite possible for society to be both oversensitive and shockingly lax about the same thing.

We have a wonderful story about a monk who was accused of fathering the child of a pregnant woman -
It was a vehement and eyeball to eyeball accusation, and the monk simply bowed his head and offered to raise the child...
Which he did, with the woman, away from the monastery...
And when the child grew up and was married, the monk returned to the monastery...
And some years later he died...

And as they were washing his body for burial, they discovered that he was a she...

I LOVE this Faith!

Arsenios

[Kelp]

We had a level three registered sex offender, who sought out the Orthodox Faith, was catechized and baptized, and entered into a parish with children... Because he had confessed his crimes, and done his time, he welcomed signing an agreement with the Parish in which he agreed to obey without question any parishoner who may just not feel comfortable with any activity he might be participating in with the parish, and back off, or move off, or do or stop doing whatever he was told... He has passed on now... God bless him... It worked...

Praise God! It does my heart good to hear about cases like that.

May God remember his soul.

[Kelp]

We have a wonderful story about a monk who was accused of fathering the child of a pregnant woman -
It was a vehement and eyeball to eyeball accusation, and the monk simply bowed his head and offered to raise the child...
Which he did, with the woman, away from the monastery...
And when the child grew up and was married, the monk returned to the monastery...
And some years later he died...

And as they were washing his body for burial, they discovered that he was a she...

I LOVE this Faith!

Arsenios

St. Theodora of Alexandria? The Ochrid says she raised the boy in the monastery and he eventually became abbot.

For those who never heard of this, she had committed adultery and was disguised as a monk because she was afraid her husband would find (and I'm guessing, kill her) at the local convent.

[maudman]

That might make a good thread - Dealing with sexual predators in church...

We had a level three registered sex offender, who sought out the Orthodox Faith, was catechized and baptized, and entered into a parish with children... Because he had confessed his crimes, and done his time, he welcomed signing an agreement with the Parish in which he agreed to obey without question any parishoner who may just not feel comfortable with any activity he might be participating in with the parish, and back off, or move off, or do or stop doing whatever he was told... He has passed on now... God bless him... It worked...

There may be other success stories... As well as failed ones... The not confessed predators are simply hard to deal with... They are not seeking help...

Arsenios

It's definitely something that many fear in all the church's in the christian faith and for good reasons... The RCC has things in place but even then it's tuff.. My priest said he had to go to what he called charm school... It's a rigorus evaluation and from what I've heard it gets serious... But there are supernatural forces at work here in the world.. With a world that is increasingly paranoid and delusional... Sound footings are hard to find for so many who have lost faith or have turned to other avenues to cope with such evils...

There are stories of those who have repented from such conditions... Too, Its hard to remember that satan leads many down the road to destruction in such cases...... But as bad as these things are we must remember what CHrist said to those in Capernaum.. That it will be more tolerable for sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that city... And it wasn't anything like S & G.. quite the opposite.... As written behold the world has become the habitaiton of devils and the hold of every foul and unclean spirit... All Christians are called to this battle because its on our own ground... It knows no bounderies...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

St. Theodora of Alexandria? The Ochrid says she raised the boy in the monastery and he eventually became abbot.

For those who never heard of this, she had committed adultery and was disguised as a monk because she was afraid her husband would find (and I'm guessing, kill her) at the local convent.

That would be her, I should think... I had forgotten the non-essential details...
She offered NO DEFENSE AGAINST FALSE CHARGES AGAINST HER...
And in this, and the punishment that ensued, she followed Christ,
Who offered NO DEFENSE either...

Real Christians do not defend themselves
Instead, they DENY themselves...

Arsenios

[Kelp]

Who offered NO DEFENSE either...

Real Christians do not defend themselves
Instead, they DENY themselves...

Christ offered no defense before Pilate publicly, but in private He defended Himself.

No judgment intended on the many holy people who have done this (St. Theodora, St. Nektarios, etc.) but I just don't think it's a good idea. It can reek havoc on weaker Christians who look up to you, not to mention shaming the cause of Christ before the world. St. Paul defended himself vigorously when accused and not just for his own sake.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Christ offered no defense before Pilate publicly, but in private He defended Himself.

He obeyed the Father unto death on the Cross...

No judgment intended on the many holy people who have done this (St. Theodora, St. Nektarios, etc.) but I just don't think it's a good idea.

How else can you follow Christ?

It can reek havoc on weaker Christians who look up to you,

Actually it provides an ontological witness that strengthens them...

not to mention shaming the cause of Christ before the world.

How can following Christ shame His cause?

St. Paul defended himself vigorously when accused and not just for his own sake.

He obeyed Christ... As Christ obeyed the Father...

Obedience is the treasury...

Arsenios

[Kelp]

Actually it provides an ontological witness that strengthens them...

But when the accusations sound credible, and the person they look up to says nothing like perhaps they're paralyzed with shame at what they've done, what is someone supposed to believe?

He obeyed Christ... As Christ obeyed the Father...

Obedience is the treasury...

So if obedience can entail both defending yourself and not defending yourself, why always favor not defending yourself as the more holy thing to do?

I'm not saying that God might not tell someone not to defend themselves for His own mysterious reasons, but in absence of that kind of direct word, defending oneself with calmness and sober argumentation seems to be the more conscientious course.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

But when the accusations sound credible, and the person they look up to says nothing, like perhaps they're paralyzed with shame at what they've done, what is someone supposed to believe?

The hope is that they will believe the worst about the person falsely accused...

Ill treatment and unjust accusations are great blessings...

So if obedience can entail both defending yourself and not defending yourself, why always favor not defending yourself as the more holy thing to do?

Have I mentioned lately that I LOVE this Faith?

Well, then, I would like to say: I LOVE this Faith!

Self denial is the key to the humility that follows Christ...

And pride goes before the fall...

And self defense is the opposite of self-denial...

I'm not saying that God might not tell someone not to defend themselves for His own mysterious reasons, but in absence of that kind of direct word, defending oneself with calmness and sober argumentation seems to be the more conscientious course.

"IF anyone is willing or desiring
After Me to be following,
Let him FIRST deny himSELF;
THEN take up his own cross each day
And be following Me..."

You see, these words actually do mean what they say...
The very first step in the discipleship of Christ
And this the very words from His Holy lips
Is self denial...

AND...

THAT self denial is wholesale...

Welcome to Orthodox Christianity 101...

And God Bless You!


Arsenios

[RBerman]

That would be her, I should think... I had forgotten the non-essential details...
She offered NO DEFENSE AGAINST FALSE CHARGES AGAINST HER...
And in this, and the punishment that ensued, she followed Christ,
Who offered NO DEFENSE either...
Real Christians do not defend themselves
Instead, they DENY themselves...

She actually did what was in her perceived best interest. If she contested the charges, her gender ruse probably would have been exposed, and she would have been revealed to her estranged husband and the community, and never allowed to return to the monastery. She did not practice self-denial, but self-defense. Just like with her initial deception to pose as a man and enter a monastery under false pretences. She obviously made a habit of lying.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

She actually did what was in her perceived best interest. If she contested the charges, her gender ruse probably would have been exposed, and she would have been revealed to her estranged husband and the community, and never allowed to return to the monastery. She did not practice self-denial, but self-defense. Just like with her initial deception to pose as a man and enter a monastery under false pretences. She obviously made a habit of lying.

It is you and I, my Brother, who are the selfish and habitual liars
who always defend our SELF
and have no obedience whatsoever
to God
...


Here's an abbreviated version:

Theodora of Alexandria is an Eastern Orthodox saint and Desert Mother who died in 490 AD. Early in life, Theodora committed adultery. Disguised as a man, she joined a monastery in repentance of her sin under the name Theodore. Her true identity as a woman was discovered after her death. Theodora is known for her miracles, such as healing sicknesses and taming wild animals.[1]

Feast day: 11 September

And here is the official Antiochian hagiography:

St. Theodora of Alexandria

Commemorated on September 11

St. Theodora and her husband lived in Alexandria. Love and harmony ruled in their family. A certain rich man was captivated by the youthful beauty of Theodora and attempted to lead her into adultery, but was initially unsuccessful. He then bribed a woman of loose morals, who led the unassuming Theodora astray by saying that a secret sin, which the sun does not see, is also unknown to God.

Theodora betrayed her husband, but soon came to her senses and realizing the seriousness of her fall, she became furious with herself, slapping herself on the face and tearing at her hair. Her conscience gave her no peace, and she went to a renowned abbess and confessed her transgression. Seeing the young woman’s repentance, the abbess spoke to her of God's forgiveness and reminded her of the sinful woman in the Gospel who washed the feet of Christ with her tears and received from Him forgiveness. In hope of the mercy of God, Theodora said: "I believe my God, and from now on, I shall not commit such a sin, and I will strive to atone for my deeds." St. Theodora resolved to go off to a monastery to purify herself by labor and by prayer. She left her home secretly, and dressing herself in men's clothes, she went to a men's monastery, since she feared that her husband would find her in a community of women.

In order to test the newcomer, the monastery’s abbot would not permit her to enter. St. Theodora spent the night at the gates. In the morning, she fell down at the knees of the abbot telling him her name was Theodore from Alexandria, and entreated him to let her remain at the monastery for repentance and monastic labors. Seeing the sincere intent of the newcomer, the abbot consented. Even the experienced monks were amazed at Theodora's all-night prayers on bended knee, her humility, endurance and self-denial. The saint labored at the monastery for eight years. Her body, once defiled by adultery, now became a vessel of the grace of God and a receptacle of the Holy Spirit.

While on a journey to buy provisions, Theodora was instructed by her abbot to stay at the Enata Monastery if there was cause for delay. There was also a young woman staying at the guest house of this same monastery. She tried to seduce St. Theodora, not realizing the monk before her was a woman. Discouraged that she had been rejected, the girl undertook a liaison with another guest and became pregnant. Ultimately, the father of this shameless girl began to question his daughter about the father of the child. The girl told him the father was the Monk Theodore, which was immediately reported to the abbot of St. Theodora’s monastery. Upon being confronted, St. Theodora replied, "As God is my witness, I did not do this." Knowing of Theodore's purity and holiness of life, the abbot did not believe the accusation. When the infant was born, the monks brought the infant to the monastery where St. Theodora lived and reproached all of their monastics for leading an unchaste life. The abbot became angry at the innocent Theodore and entrusted the infant into the care of the saint, throwing her out of the monastery in disgrace. The saint humbly submitted to this new trial, seeing in it the expiation of her former sin. She settled with the child not far from the monastery in a hut. Shepherds, out of pity, gave her milk for the infant, and the saint herself ate only wild vegetables.

Bearing her misfortune, St. Theodora spent seven years in banishment. Finally, at the request of the monks, the abbot allowed her to return to the monastery with the infant, and in seclusion she spent two years instructing the child. The abbot of the monastery received a revelation from God that the sin of the monk Theodore was forgiven. The grace of God dwelt upon the monk Theodore, and soon all the monks began to witness the signs worked through the prayers of the saint.

Before her death, St Theodora shut herself in her cell with the child and instructed him to love God above all things. She told him to obey the abbot, to preserve tranquility, to be meek and without malice, to avoid obscenity and silliness, to love non-covetousness, and not to neglect their communal prayer. After this, she prayed and, for the last time, she asked the Lord to forgive her sins. The child also prayed together with her. Soon the words of prayer faded from the lips of St. Theodora, and she peacefully departed to a better world.

The Lord revealed to the abbot the spiritual accomplishments of the saint, and also her secret. The abbot, in order to remove any dishonor told of his vision and uncovered the bosom of the saint as proof. The monastics shrank back in terror. Falling down before the body of the saint, with tears they asked forgiveness of St. Theodora. News of St. Theodora’s death reached her former husband, and he received monastic tonsure at this same monastery where his wife had lived. The child also followed in the footsteps of his foster-mother. Afterwards, he became abbot of this very monastery.

Troparion (Tone 4) –

You offered your life as a holy gift, O righteous Theodora,

For resplendent with the light of repentance, you illumined mankind.

Now pray to Christ who has magnified you to grant us his great mercy!

Kontakion (Tone 2) –

You depleted your bodily strength by fasting, vigil, and prayers,

entreating the Creator to grant forgiveness of your sin;

having received it, you showed us the way of repentance,

venerable Mother Theodora.

So you can see that like all of us,
she is a sinner who fell into sin
Who unlike you and me
Entered into repentance
And became a vessel of grace...

Arsenios

[maudman]

It is you and I, my Brother, who are the selfish and habitual liars
who always defend our SELF
and have no obedience whatsoever
to God
...


Here's an abbreviated version:

Theodora of Alexandria is an Eastern Orthodox saint and Desert Mother who died in 490 AD. Early in life, Theodora committed adultery. Disguised as a man, she joined a monastery in repentance of her sin under the name Theodore. Her true identity as a woman was discovered after her death. Theodora is known for her miracles, such as healing sicknesses and taming wild animals.[1]

Feast day: 11 September

And here is the official Antiochian hagiography:

St. Theodora of Alexandria

Commemorated on September 11

St. Theodora and her husband lived in Alexandria. Love and harmony ruled in their family. A certain rich man was captivated by the youthful beauty of Theodora and attempted to lead her into adultery, but was initially unsuccessful. He then bribed a woman of loose morals, who led the unassuming Theodora astray by saying that a secret sin, which the sun does not see, is also unknown to God.

Theodora betrayed her husband, but soon came to her senses and realizing the seriousness of her fall, she became furious with herself, slapping herself on the face and tearing at her hair. Her conscience gave her no peace, and she went to a renowned abbess and confessed her transgression. Seeing the young woman’s repentance, the abbess spoke to her of God's forgiveness and reminded her of the sinful woman in the Gospel who washed the feet of Christ with her tears and received from Him forgiveness. In hope of the mercy of God, Theodora said: "I believe my God, and from now on, I shall not commit such a sin, and I will strive to atone for my deeds." St. Theodora resolved to go off to a monastery to purify herself by labor and by prayer. She left her home secretly, and dressing herself in men's clothes, she went to a men's monastery, since she feared that her husband would find her in a community of women.

In order to test the newcomer, the monastery’s abbot would not permit her to enter. St. Theodora spent the night at the gates. In the morning, she fell down at the knees of the abbot telling him her name was Theodore from Alexandria, and entreated him to let her remain at the monastery for repentance and monastic labors. Seeing the sincere intent of the newcomer, the abbot consented. Even the experienced monks were amazed at Theodora's all-night prayers on bended knee, her humility, endurance and self-denial. The saint labored at the monastery for eight years. Her body, once defiled by adultery, now became a vessel of the grace of God and a receptacle of the Holy Spirit.

While on a journey to buy provisions, Theodora was instructed by her abbot to stay at the Enata Monastery if there was cause for delay. There was also a young woman staying at the guest house of this same monastery. She tried to seduce St. Theodora, not realizing the monk before her was a woman. Discouraged that she had been rejected, the girl undertook a liaison with another guest and became pregnant. Ultimately, the father of this shameless girl began to question his daughter about the father of the child. The girl told him the father was the Monk Theodore, which was immediately reported to the abbot of St. Theodora’s monastery. Upon being confronted, St. Theodora replied, "As God is my witness, I did not do this." Knowing of Theodore's purity and holiness of life, the abbot did not believe the accusation. When the infant was born, the monks brought the infant to the monastery where St. Theodora lived and reproached all of their monastics for leading an unchaste life. The abbot became angry at the innocent Theodore and entrusted the infant into the care of the saint, throwing her out of the monastery in disgrace. The saint humbly submitted to this new trial, seeing in it the expiation of her former sin. She settled with the child not far from the monastery in a hut. Shepherds, out of pity, gave her milk for the infant, and the saint herself ate only wild vegetables.

Bearing her misfortune, St. Theodora spent seven years in banishment. Finally, at the request of the monks, the abbot allowed her to return to the monastery with the infant, and in seclusion she spent two years instructing the child. The abbot of the monastery received a revelation from God that the sin of the monk Theodore was forgiven. The grace of God dwelt upon the monk Theodore, and soon all the monks began to witness the signs worked through the prayers of the saint.

Before her death, St Theodora shut herself in her cell with the child and instructed him to love God above all things. She told him to obey the abbot, to preserve tranquility, to be meek and without malice, to avoid obscenity and silliness, to love non-covetousness, and not to neglect their communal prayer. After this, she prayed and, for the last time, she asked the Lord to forgive her sins. The child also prayed together with her. Soon the words of prayer faded from the lips of St. Theodora, and she peacefully departed to a better world.

The Lord revealed to the abbot the spiritual accomplishments of the saint, and also her secret. The abbot, in order to remove any dishonor told of his vision and uncovered the bosom of the saint as proof. The monastics shrank back in terror. Falling down before the body of the saint, with tears they asked forgiveness of St. Theodora. News of St. Theodora’s death reached her former husband, and he received monastic tonsure at this same monastery where his wife had lived. The child also followed in the footsteps of his foster-mother. Afterwards, he became abbot of this very monastery.

Troparion (Tone 4) –

You offered your life as a holy gift, O righteous Theodora,

For resplendent with the light of repentance, you illumined mankind.

Now pray to Christ who has magnified you to grant us his great mercy!

Kontakion (Tone 2) –

You depleted your bodily strength by fasting, vigil, and prayers,

entreating the Creator to grant forgiveness of your sin;

having received it, you showed us the way of repentance,

venerable Mother Theodora.

So you can see that like all of us,
she is a sinner who fell into sin
Who unlike you and me
Entered into repentance
And became a vessel of grace...

Arsenios

But was it a real story or an allegory pointing something else?