The original Christian teachings on salvation and atonement

[RBerman]

I am happy to boldly state that the NPP is correct to draw a strong contrast between 'works of the law' and 'good works' in its reading of Paul. Paul's comments about good works are very positive, his comments about 'works of the law' are negative... so it is fairly self evident that the two references are to different things.

Well, he wouldn't very well criticize "good" works, would he? He's only going to call works "good" in a context where they're not causing a problem. The same is true of the Law. In Romans 7, he says the Law is holy and spiritual, in opposition to our sinful hearts. But elsewhere, in the context of justification, he speaks disparagingly of the Law, because it's not the proper tool for that task. That doesn't make the Law "two different things." It makes it one thing which is helpful in one context but not in another.

[Tourist]

If by salvation you mean achieving a positive judgement I agree with everything you say here Tercel.

Obsidian, in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 Paul is talking specifically about the work of those done in building on the foundation he has laid (e.g. other itinerant workers/apostles, Apollos etc). For good quality work they will be rewarded. Those that are saved "as through fire" are still trying to do good and I suspect Paul is using fire in a purifying sense here. He then goes on to talk about those who don't do good:

16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

You say 'eternal life comes by faith.' The word translated as 'eternal' (aionios)in the phrase eternal life does not actually mean eternal in the sense of 'without end'. A much better translation is 'measureless' or 'indefinite' or 'age-long'. The writers of the New Testament would not have used aionios to convey 'without end' as there is a word in Koine Greek that means exactly this - aidios (it is used in Romans 1:20 and Jude 6). In Isaiah 58:12 aionios is used to refer to a wall and the NASB renders it well as 'age-old'. Many scholars assert that the term eternal life is usually used as a synonym for the Kingdom of God/Heaven. The Kingdom of God is defined by Paul as 'righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit'. So what am I saying? I am basically asserting that (as it says in Galatians 3:2 for example) we receive the Spirit by *faith* and we receive eternal (or rather, age-long) life by *faith*. These are probably essentially the same thing. The point is, it is for the here and now and is a foretaste of what is to come provided we finish the race (and don't get disqualified). Thus, receiving eternal life (age-long life) doesn't guarantee us a positive judgement at the Final Judgement because 'age-long' refers to the period of time up until the Final Judgement (e.g. it is not the spiritual equivalent of a 'get out of jail free' card).

I starred the word faith because I am not convinced this is always (or even most often) the best translation of pistis. Of course, pistis can be translated as faith but whether it should be really depends upon the context. In many places in the New Testament 'faithfulness' is (arguably) a more appropriate translation.

[RBerman]

You say 'eternal life comes by faith.' The word translated as 'eternal' (aionios)in the phrase eternal life does not actually mean eternal in the sense of 'without end'. A much better translation is 'measureless' or 'indefinite' or 'age-long'. The writers of the New Testament would not have used aionios to convey 'without end' as there is a word in Koine Greek that means exactly this - aidios (it is used in Romans 1:20 and Jude 6). In Isaiah 58:12 aionios is used to refer to a wall and the NASB renders it well as 'age-old'. Many scholars assert that the term eternal life is usually used as a synonym for the Kingdom of God/Heaven. The Kingdom of God is defined by Paul as 'righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit'. So what am I saying? I am basically asserting that (as it says in Galatians 3:2 for example) we receive the Spirit by *faith* and we receive eternal (or rather, age-long) life by *faith*. These are probably essentially the same thing. The point is, it is for the here and now and is a foretaste of what is to come provided we finish the race (and don't get disqualified). Thus, receiving eternal life (age-long life) doesn't guarantee us a positive judgement at the Final Judgement because 'age-long' refers to the period of time up until the Final Judgement (e.g. it is not the spiritual equivalent of a 'get out of jail free' card).

Welcome to the board! In your view does the Bible speak anywhere of what happens after the final judgment to those who get the positive judgment, and for how long?

[Tourist]

Welcome to the board! In your view does the Bible speak anywhere of what happens after the final judgment to those who get the positive judgment, and for how long?

Hi RBerman thanks for the welcome

Good questions. I haven't really spent much time reading about that yet so I guess I don't know exactly what I think. In various places in the scriptures there are references to a new heaven and a new earth and in Revelation John talks about a New Jerusalem...

As to for how long - no idea

I might start looking into it a little more...

What do you think?

[RBerman]

Good questions. I haven't really spent much time reading about that yet so I guess I don't know exactly what I think. In various places in the scriptures there are references to a new heaven and a new earth and in Revelation John talks about a New Jerusalem. As to for how long - no idea. I might start looking into it a little more. What do you think?

I think the Bible thinks of membership in the kingdom of heaven as an ongoing thing which extends onto the New Earth, New Jerusalem, etc. John's gospel talks about "eternal life" in the same way that the Synoptic gospels speak of membership in the kingdom of heaven, which gives me the impression that it extends into the future infinity, regardless of the core meaning of aionos as simply a vocabulary word.

[Tourist]

I think the Bible thinks of membership in the kingdom of heaven as an ongoing thing which extends onto the New Earth, New Jerusalem, etc. John's gospel talks about "eternal life" in the same way that the Synoptic gospels speak of membership in the kingdom of heaven, which gives me the impression that it extends into the future infinity, regardless of the core meaning of aionos as simply a vocabulary word.

A lot of my friends would probably hold a pretty similar view. How do you interpret the passages about judgment in the gospels? Here are a few to start us off:

Matt 7:15-23

15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Matt 25:31-46

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

John 5:28-29

28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

[RBerman]

A lot of my friends would probably hold a pretty similar view. How do you interpret the passages about judgment in the gospels? Here are a few to start us off:

The common theme running through those passages is that the true children of God can be known by their works. Good works are a necessary corrolary of following Christ.

[anewlife]

The notion of Christ suffering God's punishment on behalf of sinners ('penal substitution') is quite widely taught and promoted within Christianity today. Yet many Christians often find this teaching and others associated with it to be difficult to accept. It is often rejected on Biblical, logical, and moral grounds. Non-Christians too often find these ideas problematic, and cite them as a reason for rejecting Christianity.

A few questions:

How would Christians find the penal substitution as difficult to accept, and why?

How would this theory be rejected on Biblical, logical, and moral grounds?

I haven't read your book, what sources of patristic writings do you consider orthodox, and why?

I am certain that within patristic writings one can reach various conclusions but to what extent would one view the sensus plenior when consorting such writings?



It may be true that Non-Christians often find these ideas problematic, and cite them as a reason for rejecting Christianity, but that does not necessarily conclude the theory as false. It would only mean that the Non-Christian merely disagrees with the Christian worldview. I find certain things as problematic such as the US Government but that doesn't necessarily mean that I reject the principle of government. Again, stating that someone does not agree with a worldview doesn't make the worldview incorrect, but showing inconsistency of living the worldview would. I am sure many are aware of the Pagan influences that slipped in Christianity and some are probably not aware of such influences.



Thanks.

[Tourist]

The common theme running through those passages is that the true children of God can be known by their works. Good works are a necessary corrolary of following Christ.

I'd agree that that is 'a' theme. I think the main theme is that everyone will be judged, at the Final Judgment, by their works.

On a related note I think one of the criteria for becoming a child of God is whether or not you do what is right:

Acts 10:34-35

Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

[RBerman]

I'd agree that that is 'a' theme. I think the main theme is that everyone will be judged, at the Final Judgment, by their works.

On a related note I think one of the criteria for becoming a child of God is whether or not you do what is right:

Acts 10:34-35

Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

Don't conflate correlation with causation. God sent Peter to Cornelius precisely because Cornelius needed something more than just good intentions. He needed the gospel, and he needed the Holy Spirit. Good works are not a criterion for becoming a child of God, but they are a characteristic of one who is a child of God. That's why works are described as a 'fruit.' The kind of fruit is caused by the kind of tree, not the other way around. Everyone will be judged by works, but the determination of final destiny is based on the Book of Life, not the books of works. (Rev 20:12, 15)

[Tercel]

RBerman,

Something that was pivotal in my own understanding of the Bible's teachings on final judgment, was to read through the entire New Testament taking notes on every reference to it. It surprised me that the New Testament was abundantly clear on the topic and that dozens of passages which referred to the final judgment were all but unanimous in making very clear that the criteria of this final judgment was works. Likewise, a substantial number of passages made it clear that this was not merely a secondary judgment about 'rewards' but was in fact the final eternal judgment about 'eternal life' vs 'eternal damnation'. Matthew 25:31-46 is the New Testament's lengthiest explanation of the judgment, and it makes clear that eternal life and eternal damnation are the consequences of the works-based judgment. Likewise other passages such as John 5:28-29, Romans 2:6-11, Galatians 6:8-10 etc equally indicate that the works based judgment is not merely a matter of rewards or lack of them but is in fact about 'eternal life'.

I was surprised to find that absent from the New Testament is any depiction of a faith-based final judgment about eternal life. As a young evangelical I had always imagined the final judgment scene as people rewarded according to their works but their eternal status judged on their faith. Yet the New Testament fails to depict such a scene - faith is never shown as the criteria of final judgment. The criteria of final judgment - a final eternal judgment - is depicted over and over through the New Testament as being works.

I found this survey of the New Testament particularly insightful, because I realised that the New Testament writers were quite sure in their minds that there would be a final eternal judgment by works. Logically, therefore whatever they meant by the term "salvation by faith", it clearly wasn't that there would be a final judgment to eternal life/death based on faith.

I also think you need to read Rev 20:11-15 more carefully, and in light of some of the context of the rest of revelation (eg 21:8 seems particularly relevant). It is yet another example of a final eternal judgment according to works.

[Tercel]

If by salvation you mean achieving a positive judgement I agree with everything you say here Tercel.

Hi Tourist and welcome. It's great to have some agreement. :)

I'm afraid I'm sometimes a bit careless in how I use words like "salvation", as I tend to use words in ways that my conversation partners are used to rather than necessarily how the Bible uses them. In most Evangelical usage, 'salvation' is the same thing as achieving a positive final judgment, but of course that's not how it's used in the New Testament. In the New Testament the thing from which we are saved is usually specified as sinful ways of living. ie loosely speaking, 'salvation' is generally a synonym for 'repentance' in the New Testament. Although, more precisely, we need to bear in mind that the New Testament writers understand evil as a power that entrapped people and enslaved them in a cycle of sinfuless and inability. 'Salvation' is thus repentance brought about through an outside agency - a person or information which intervenes to help change the lifestyle of the entrapped person. For the early Christians of course, such changes were brought about through the support of others in the church group, commitment to following Jesus' teachings and example, etc. ie through faithfully following Jesus. Thus we get Paul's common phrase that 'salvation' comes through faithfulness.

On the question of whether "eternal life / death" really are everlasting or not, I would agree that many English translations do tend to mislead a bit by translating it with the word "eternal", and such a translation seems to owe more to theological inertia than the meaning of the Greek. I get the impression that most scholars are more inclined to read the Greek as meaning "life of the ages" in the sense of "life of the highest quality", in a similar way to how we would understand the phrases "player of the year" or "sale of the century" as denoting something outstanding in its class. Jewish texts tend to use the phrase "life in the age to come" to refer to receiving a positive final judgment. That said, I think it's fairly clear that Jews believed that 'the age to come' would be infinite in its duration. Likewise there is every reason to assume that the early Christians simply adopted this Jewish belief/assumption as they adopted so many other Jewish beliefs - nowhere do they deny or reject such a view. Thus I would be of the opinion that the early Christians probably did believe in eternal life and death even though they very rarely/never explicitly state this in their writings. Some of the Early Church Fathers are quite explicit on this though if I recall correctly - although of course some of their statements could equally be open for a level of debate as to interpretation. (Of course, there's quite a few early fathers, noteably Origen, who most definitely did not think that hell was eternal in duration)

[RBerman]

RBerman,

Something that was pivotal in my own understanding of the Bible's teachings on final judgment, was to read through the entire New Testament taking notes on every reference to it. It surprised me that the New Testament was abundantly clear on the topic and that dozens of passages which referred to the final judgment were all but unanimous in making very clear that the criteria of this final judgment was works. Likewise, a substantial number of passages made it clear that this was not merely a secondary judgment about 'rewards' but was in fact the final eternal judgment about 'eternal life' vs 'eternal damnation'. Matthew 25:31-46 is the New Testament's lengthiest explanation of the judgment, and it makes clear that eternal life and eternal damnation are the consequences of the works-based judgment. Likewise other passages such as John 5:28-29, Romans 2:6-11, Galatians 6:8-10 etc equally indicate that the works based judgment is not merely a matter of rewards or lack of them but is in fact about 'eternal life'.

Galatians 6 fits into the familiar Pauline epistolary pattern of first affirming that justification is by faith without respect to works (thus Gal 2:15-21) and then affirming the good works which always accompany faith (starting in Galatians 5:16). In Romans the similar break happens between chapters 1-5 and chapters 6-8. Romans 2 speaks of a favorable judgment according to works only when sandwiched between passages saying that neither Jews nor Gentiles qualify for that offer, because their works are not good enough. John 5 does correlate good works with the favorable final judgment, as is entirely appropriate.

I was surprised to find that absent from the New Testament is any depiction of a faith-based final judgment about eternal life. As a young evangelical I had always imagined the final judgment scene as people rewarded according to their works but their eternal status judged on their faith. Yet the New Testament fails to depict such a scene - faith is never shown as the criteria of final judgment. The criteria of final judgment - a final eternal judgment - is depicted over and over through the New Testament as being works.

I found this survey of the New Testament particularly insightful, because I realised that the New Testament writers were quite sure in their minds that there would be a final eternal judgment by works. Logically, therefore whatever they meant by the term "salvation by faith", it clearly wasn't that there would be a final judgment to eternal life/death based on faith.I also think you need to read Rev 20:11-15 more carefully, and in light of some of the context of the rest of revelation (eg 21:8 seems particularly relevant). It is yet another example of a final eternal judgment according to works.

Our disagreement about Revelation 20 is not due to a lack of careful reading on my part. John appropriates Daniel's language of the "books" of Daniel 7:10's divine court contrasted with the "book of life" of Daniel 12:1-2. What's happened is that you've set up a false dichotomy between "final judgment according to works" and "final salvation according to faith" so that references to the former seem to rule out the latter, when the opposite is true: In order to receive a favorable final judgment, we need Christ's works reckoned to us by virtue of our union with Christ, through faith.

[Tourist]

Hi Tourist and welcome. It's great to have some agreement. :)

Thanks - not long after I first became a Christian 10 years ago I started to notice some discrepancies between the eternal salvation by faith model I was being taught and the words of Jesus in the gospels (and later the rest of the New Testament).

I'm afraid I'm sometimes a bit careless in how I use words like "salvation", as I tend to use words in ways that my conversation partners are used to rather than necessarily how the Bible uses them. In most Evangelical usage, 'salvation' is the same thing as achieving a positive final judgment, but of course that's not how it's used in the New Testament.

It is an inevitable trap we all fall into because it is a lot quicker than redefining the terms in every conversation...

In the New Testament the thing from which we are saved is usually specified as sinful ways of living. ie loosely speaking, 'salvation' is generally a synonym for 'repentance' in the New Testament. Although, more precisely, we need to bear in mind that the New Testament writers understand evil as a power that entrapped people and enslaved them in a cycle of sinfuless and inability. 'Salvation' is thus repentance brought about through an outside agency - a person or information which intervenes to help change the lifestyle of the entrapped person. For the early Christians of course, such changes were brought about through the support of others in the church group, commitment to following Jesus' teachings and example, etc. ie through faithfully following Jesus. Thus we get Paul's common phrase that 'salvation' comes through faithfulness.

Hmmm... I think I need to let that digest a little.

On the question of whether "eternal life / death" really are everlasting or not, I would agree that many English translations do tend to mislead a bit by translating it with the word "eternal", and such a translation seems to owe more to theological inertia than the meaning of the Greek. I get the impression that most scholars are more inclined to read the Greek as meaning "life of the ages" in the sense of "life of the highest quality", in a similar way to how we would understand the phrases "player of the year" or "sale of the century" as denoting something outstanding in its class. Jewish texts tend to use the phrase "life in the age to come" to refer to receiving a positive final judgment.

I imagine that would be based primarily on the meaning of 'olam' in the Old Testament, which is translated by aionios in the Septuagint. I agree.

That said, I think it's fairly clear that Jews believed that 'the age to come' would be infinite in its duration.

This is quite a complicated topic. Do you mean the post resurrection/final judgement age by 'the age to come'? Could you point me in the direction of any sources (primary or secondary) that are helpful on this?

Likewise there is every reason to assume that the early Christians simply adopted this Jewish belief/assumption as they adopted so many other Jewish beliefs - nowhere do they deny or reject such a view. Thus I would be of the opinion that the early Christians probably did believe in eternal life and death even though they very rarely/never explicitly state this in their writings. Some of the Early Church Fathers are quite explicit on this though if I recall correctly - although of course some of their statements could equally be open for a level of debate as to interpretation. (Of course, there's quite a few early fathers, noteably Origen, who most definitely did not think that hell was eternal in duration)

I think I need to spend a bit more time reading the Early Church Fathers. I've read a fair amount about them but have spent little time actually reading them. I have heard of Origen's view on this. I think it is interesting that the word translated by most bibles as 'punishment' in Matthew 25:46 is, according to William Barclay, never used for anything but 'remedial punishment' in secular Greek literature of the time and the word was originally used in relation to pruning trees.

p.s. next time I'll use the multi-quote button

[Tourist]

Don't conflate correlation with causation. God sent Peter to Cornelius precisely because Cornelius needed something more than just good intentions. He needed the gospel, and he needed the Holy Spirit. Good works are not a criterion for becoming a child of God, but they are a characteristic of one who is a child of God. That's why works are described as a 'fruit.' The kind of fruit is caused by the kind of tree, not the other way around. Everyone will be judged by works, but the determination of final destiny is based on the Book of Life, not the books of works. (Rev 20:12, 15)

I said 'one' of the criteria not the only criteria. The other is that you fear him. Good works can be brought about by repentance but this was not the case with Conelius in this passage as he was already doing them. Of course it was good for Cornelius to hear the gospel and receive the Holy Spirit, but he was acceptable to God even before this had happened because he feared God and did what is right. Peter doesn't mention repentance when preaching to Cornelius, this is because Cornelius is already acceptable to God.

I do not think the fruit analogy supports your point of view over mine (it could be used to support either).