Belief in God Instinctive?

[shunyadragon]

That is all fine Shuny, even if I disagree with some of it. But remember what this discussion was originally about i.e. what were your reasons for belief in God, why do you believe that God exists. You are confusing me now. Can you be more direct?

I answered it, and I will repeat with highlighted with a slight modification. . .

"I answered the question, but if you want I will amplify somewhat. I believe in the God. because there is sufficient evidence presented in God's expression in human cultures universally is sufficient to believe. Progressive Revelation as described by the Baha'i Faith expressed universally and prophesy provides a sufficient basis to consider the religions and beliefs of the world since the Neolithic to be an expression of the human view of God, which varies from culture to culture and time to time as it does in the Bible. I do not believe that the individual religions, ie Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are sufficient to justify belief in God, because they only represent one narrow view of Revelation and God set in one culture and time. The main response remains I have 'faith' that God exists, I do not know God exists.

You would need a separate thread to go into this in detail. I have actually done this before."

The following really does not make sense . . .

Shuny, this really does not make sense. Either there are definable, knowable attributes of God or there are not. You can't say that certain attributes can be known (no matter how we gain that information) then turn around and say God is unknowable. It really is a either or situation.

. . . because the above contradicts with the following.

Not that we can know God totally, but that we can know true things about God.

Yes, I believe there is sufficient evidence to believe certain things about God, but in all humility as a fallible human being I do not know . . .

To your other point. Yes justice, love, compassion are human attributes, but so are cruelty, selfishness, unkindness, etc... Why does one set of behaviors reflect the nature of God while the other does not?

. . . because they are human attributes, not God's.

[JimL]

I have no idea what this means. You can not reason without information, and how does the mind get information apart from implanted memes? How do you overcome a meme (a unit of information) except by another meme (unit of information)?

True, you can not reason without information, but reasoning is not information itself, and all information coming from without is not what are called memes. Memes shape the mind according to ones culture, but they don't necessarily inform the mind as to the reality of the world. The world of information, reality, is still out there to be discovered whether a certain idea of it has already been impressed upon you. Thats how the mind/brain works, remember the looping effect, where the mind/brain reflects back upon itself.

But doesn't everything you know come from "without?" Can you give an example of some unit of information (that you use to reason) that does not come from "without?"

I believe so, but reasoning I think is a capacity that comes from within. Memes are not the only information that the mind has to reason with, they are only that information which is imposed on the mind by the culture within which it exists.

[seer]

I believe so, but reasoning I think is a capacity that comes from within. Memes are not the only information that the mind has to reason with, they are only that information which is imposed on the mind by the culture within which it exists.

Jim, can you give me an example of information that is not a meme? I mean the math, science, the description of trees and birds, the colors I learned, the theory of evolution, etc...were all cultural memes that were imposed on me as a child. What other information is out there that isn't, in the end, a meme - and a meme doesn't have to be a cultural unit of information - just a unit of information.

[seer]

I answered it, and I will repeat with highlighted with a slight modification. . .

"I answered the question, but if you want I will amplify somewhat. I believe in the God. because there is sufficient evidence presented in God's expression in human cultures universally is sufficient to believe. Progressive Revelation as described by the Baha'i Faith expressed universally and prophesy provides a sufficient basis to consider the religions and beliefs of the world since the Neolithic to be an expression of the human view of God, which varies from culture to culture and time to time as it does in the Bible. I do not believe that the individual religions, ie Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are sufficient to justify belief in God, because they only represent one narrow view of Revelation and God set in one culture and time. The main response remains I have 'faith' that God exists, I do not know God exists.

You would need a separate thread to go into this in detail. I have actually done this before."

The following really does not make sense . . .



. . . because the above contradicts with the following.




Yes, I believe there is sufficient evidence to believe certain things about God, but in all humility as a fallible human being I do not know . . .



. . . because they are human attributes, not God's.

Ok Shuny, I will leave you with the last word on this. Thanks, James

[JimL]

Jim, can you give me an example of information that is not a meme? I mean the math, science, the description of trees and birds, the colors I learned, the theory of evolution, etc...were all cultural memes that were imposed on me as a child. What other information is out there that isn't, in the end, a meme - and a meme doesn't have to be a cultural unit of information - just a unit of information.

Memes are not the things in themselves but the ideas that are transmitted by way of the things. The bible or the koran for instance are things, but it is the information within them in the form of ideas that is transmitted from generation to generation, from mind to mind. It is obvious that different cultures and therefore the people that make them up are different because of the different information that is impressed upon their young minds. Neither need have anything to do with reality or truth. That at least is my limited understanding of memes and how they function.

[seer]

Memes are not the things in themselves but the ideas that are transmitted by way of the things. The bible or the koran for instance are things, but it is the information within them in the form of ideas that is transmitted from generation to generation, from mind to mind. It is obvious that different cultures and therefore the people that make them up are different because of the different information that is impressed upon their young minds. Neither need have anything to do with reality or truth. That at least is my limited understanding of memes and how they function.

But Jim, you have not offered an example of a unit of information (which are necessary for rationality) that is not, in the end by definition, a meme. Like I said, my understanding of numbers, grammar, colors, evolution, science in general, history, as well as religion, would have all came by "memes" if you are correct. I mean really, you only know about memes because Dawkins, or one of his followers, imposed that idea on your mind. Everything you know, all the facts you use to reason, also came by memes. So why bring up memes in the first place?

[JimL]

But Jim, you have not offered an example of a unit of information (which are necessary for rationality) that is not, in the end by definition, a meme. Like I said, my understanding of numbers, grammar, colors, evolution, science in general, history, as well as religion, would have all came by "memes" if you are correct. I mean really, you only know about memes because Dawkins, or one of his followers, imposed that idea on your mind. Everything you know, all the facts you use to reason, also came by memes. So why bring up memes in the first place?

I don't have a fundamental understanding of memes so I can't give you an example in the sense of a unit of information, all I can say is that it seems obvious to me that ideas certainly seem to become the minds in which they are implanted. Why is a muslim a muslim or a christian a christian; it seems to me obvious that this is so because those particular minds evolved out of those particular cultures and if the case was reversed then the muslim would be a christian and the christian would be a muslim. Thats how I understand the nature of memes, or their function as ideas, which seems logical enough to me, but I am not astute enough to explain the theory in detail.

[seer]

I don't have a fundamental understanding of memes so I can't give you an example in the sense of a unit of information, all I can say is that it seems obvious to me that ideas certainly seem to become the minds in which they are implanted. Why is a muslim a muslim or a christian a christian; it seems to me obvious that this is so because those particular minds evolved out of those particular cultures and if the case was reversed then the muslim would be a christian and the christian would be a muslim. Thats how I understand the nature of memes, or their function as ideas, which seems logical enough to me, but I am not astute enough to explain the theory in detail.

Well Jim this is my problem. You only seem only want to apply the term "memes" to religious or cultural beliefs. That is selective and a way to minimize such beliefs. Why isn't your atheism also a result of memes? Your understanding of evolution, science, numbers, colors, etc... Yes they would be, these are the things I learned growing up - culturally induced. Does that bear on their truth or falseness? Of course not.

[JimL]

Well Jim this is my problem. You only seem only want to apply the term "memes" to religious or cultural beliefs. That is selective and a way to minimize such beliefs. Why isn't your atheism also a result of memes? Your understanding of evolution, science, numbers, colors, etc... Yes they would be, these are the things I learned growing up - culturally induced. Does that bear on their truth or falseness? Of course not.

Memes are about cultural beliefs, not only religion, but any ideas or behavior pertaining to ones culture. I wouldn't consider atheism a belief or a product of culture and so I wouldn't apply the term to it. I was raised as a Christian, in a Christian dominated culture but abandoned the idea of it altogether, which obviously does occur but in general, I'm sure you will agree that the ideas and the beliefs of the culture generally hold.

[seer]

Memes are about cultural beliefs, not only religion, but any ideas or behavior pertaining to ones culture. I wouldn't consider atheism a belief or a product of culture and so I wouldn't apply the term to it. I was raised as a Christian, in a Christian dominated culture but abandoned the idea of it altogether, which obviously does occur but in general, I'm sure you will agree that the ideas and the beliefs of the culture generally hold.

But Jim, if you grew up in North Korea, Cuba or the former Soviet Union atheism would be the dominate cultural belief. Would that make it any less true? And again, what I learned about evolution, numbers, colors, history, were also cultural beliefs implanted in my brain by memes - does that make them any less true? This is the problem with the so called meme theory - some like to apply it to explain (or rather explain away) the beliefs or conclusions of others - but they will not apply it to their own beliefs. Not only is that a double standard, it is logically untenable.

[JimL]

But Jim, if you grew up in North Korea, Cuba or the former Soviet Union atheism would be the dominate cultural belief. Would that make it any less true? And again, what I learned about evolution, numbers, colors, history, were also cultural beliefs implanted in my brain by memes - does that make them any less true? This is the problem with the so called meme theory - some like to apply it to explain (or rather explain away) the beliefs or conclusions of others - but they will not apply it to their own beliefs. Not only is that a double standard, it is logically untenable.

Well, first off I do not think that atheism should be considered a cultural idea or belief, it is just a denial thereof, a negation. Atheism is a term that would not even exist If you grew up in a culture where the idea of God had never existed.
Sorry, at work, got to go.

[seer]

Well, first off I do not think that atheism should be considered a cultural idea or belief, it is just a denial thereof, a negation. Atheism is a term that would not even exist If you grew up in a culture where the idea of God had never existed.
Sorry, at work, got to go.

James, see what you are trying to do? You want to separate meme theory from your own beliefs (why is that?). In many modern societies atheism is the dominate belief (you may not call it atheism but the result is the same) - and it would be just as much a cultural meme as God belief. Back to my other example Jim - I was brought up believing that the theory of evolution was true. I was taught it in school, my family believed it was so - as a matter of fact, thinking about it these last couple of days, I can't remember anyone in my early life that questioned it (that came later in life). So would you agree that was a meme? If not why not? And does that fact, if it was a meme, make it any less true or false?

[JimL]

James, see what you are trying to do? You want to separate meme theory from your own beliefs (why is that?). In many modern societies atheism is the dominate belief (you may not call it atheism but the result is the same) - and it would be just as much a cultural meme as God belief.

I disagree with you seer that atheism is a belief. A belief is when you believe in some-thing, and atheism is not a belief in some-thing, it is merely the denial of an abstract idea held to be true in the mind of another. If the concept of God had never arisen in the imagination of man then neither would the term atheism have arisen. Do you see what I mean, without the concept of God there is no belief called atheism, because it is not a belief in some-thing, it is merely a disbelief in a concept. In other words an atheist doesn't believe in something called no-god because no-god implies that there is nothing there to believe in.

Back to my other example Jim - I was brought up believing that the theory of evolution was true. I was taught it in school, my family believed it was so - as a matter of fact, thinking about it these last couple of days, I can't remember anyone in my early life that questioned it (that came later in life). So would you agree that was a meme? If not why not? And does that fact, if it was a meme, make it any less true or false?

I think that we can argue as to whether or not the theory of evolution is true or not, but unlike the idea of God the theory of evolution is not a concept the evidence of which exists only in the mind of the believer, and so I don't think that belief in evolution, whether correct or not, is what is meant by the term meme. Memes, at least to my limited understanding of the term, are defining of abstract ideas, not empirical scientific ideas.

[seer]

I disagree with you seer that atheism is a belief. A belief is when you believe in some-thing, and atheism is not a belief in some-thing, it is merely the denial of an abstract idea held to be true in the mind of another. If the concept of God had never arisen in the imagination of man then neither would the term atheism have arisen. Do you see what I mean, without the concept of God there is no belief called atheism, because it is not a belief in some-thing, it is merely a disbelief in a concept. In other words an atheist doesn't believe in something called no-god because no-god implies that there is nothing there to believe in.

Really James, this argument is silly. In the former Soviet Union, China (under Mao), Cuba, and North Korea, denying the existence of God was very much preached and taught. It is a belief Jim (unprovable belief BTW) no matter how much you try and deny it.

I think that we can argue as to whether or not the theory of evolution is true or not, but unlike the idea of God the theory of evolution is not a concept the evidence of which exists only in the mind of the believer, and so I don't think that belief in evolution, whether correct or not, is what is meant by the term meme. Memes, at least to my limited understanding of the term, are defining of abstract ideas, not empirical scientific ideas.

Jim, I'm not arguing whether belief in God or evolution are true or not. I'm saying that they would both be memes. The theory of evolution was as much cultural meme as anything else I was taught growing up. The bottom line Jim is that just because something is a meme (if such things exist) doesn't make it false.

And you really don't want to go down this "evidence" road again James, because in the end all you have is what exists in your mind. Nothing more...

[phaedrus]

And solipsism rears its ugly head again. There is no reliable way (according to you) to choose between the likelihood of fairies or apples in your garden.