Levitical and Melchizedek priesthoods

[Sparko]

That is an excellent point. Because murder is one of the sins that God does not forgive. So if God doesn't forgive it, why would the church?

But God does forgive it. He forgave Moses, didn't he?

[ke7ejx]

That's true. But he also provided consequences. Just like with King David. He killed Uriah to take Bathsheba and Nathan the prophet told him that there would always be violence within his family, that his wives "would be given to his neighbor and they will lie with him in broad daylight" (2 Samuel 12:11) and last but certainly not least, while David acted in secret, God would act publically. Our scriptures also say that David lost his second estate. It has been my experience through the years that most churches I attended believes that if you kill someone intentionally, you go straight to Hell. I don't know if this is the case or not, but I do believe that God has a pretty good way to make his point when needed. Especially with the irony of David's second son Solomon becoming king and the impact he had on the world...but that's a different story... and please if anyone feels I am in error of this, I would love to know and hear other opinions. :)

[Bill the Cat]

But God does forgive it. He forgave Moses, didn't he?

And He forgave David.

2 Sam 12:13Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord!" Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin."

[JB]

That's why the question of 'whether killing a person constitutes murder or not' must be judged on a case by case basis.

There are actually 2 definitions of murder that we can be speaking of in our Church. There is physical murder, and there is spiritual murder-which we also refer to as committing the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost.

Given the full text of D&C 42:79 and its literary context, is it talking about 'physical murder' or 'spiritual murder'? (What exactly would be the penalty for 'spiritual murder' under the 'laws of the land'?)

[Bill the Cat]

That's why the question of 'whether killing a person constitutes murder or not' must be judged on a case by case basis.

There are actually 2 definitions of murder that we can be speaking of in our Church. There is physical murder, and there is spiritual murder-which we also refer to as committing the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost.

And Moses murdered according to the Bible.

[Sparko]

That's true. But he also provided consequences. Just like with King David. He killed Uriah to take Bathsheba and Nathan the prophet told him that there would always be violence within his family, that his wives "would be given to his neighbor and they will lie with him in broad daylight" (2 Samuel 12:11) and last but certainly not least, while David acted in secret, God would act publically. Our scriptures also say that David lost his second estate. It has been my experience through the years that most churches I attended believes that if you kill someone intentionally, you go straight to Hell. I don't know if this is the case or not, but I do believe that God has a pretty good way to make his point when needed. Especially with the irony of David's second son Solomon becoming king and the impact he had on the world...but that's a different story... and please if anyone feels I am in error of this, I would love to know and hear other opinions. :)

Moses had no consequences. He made it to heaven didn't he? He appeared on the mount of transfiguration to Jesus.

David was forgiven. He did have some mortal consequences (His baby died) but he was forgiven and his sin was taken away by God. If we murder we have consequences too (like going to jail) but as far as I know all orthodox Christians believe that even then someone can accept Jesus and be saved. That is why we have prison ministries, in part.

Paul was complicit in the murder of Christians. He captured them and took them to the Pharisees and stood by while they were killed. In any court of law today he would be convicted of murder as an accomplice. But he was forgiven by God and the Christians and went on to be one of the greatest apostles.

But if the LDS D&C is correct, then Moses should have lost or never gotten the Melchizedek priesthood and could not have passed it on to Aaron or anyone else. and the same with David and Paul. and they should have all lost their salvation and forgiveness. Yet the LDS church doesn't believe that.

[OtherCheek]

Given the full text of D&C 42:79 and its literary context, is it talking about 'physical murder' or 'spiritual murder'? (What exactly would be the penalty for 'spiritual murder' under the 'laws of the land'?)

Scripture Verse:

79And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall akill they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land.

This verse seems to me to be talking only about physical murder. The footnote (a) in the verse refers to the topical guide: Blood, Shedding of; Murder.

We do have many members of the church who have been to war, and taken the life of others. Yet they are received in full fellowship.

That is why killing (which for some people is equivalent/synonymous with murder) is judged on a case by case basis when it comes to receiving people into the church.

IMO, killing is not equivalent with murder, but the scriptures don't appear to always make that distinction very well in every instance.

[moreta]

Once again I wander in late. Wow. I take a day off Tweb and there's 2+ 60 post pages.

Anyway, welcome (belatedly) Kristyn, and I to look forward to hearing what you have to say.

[OtherCheek]

That's true. But he also provided consequences. Just like with King David. He killed Uriah to take Bathsheba and Nathan the prophet told him that there would always be violence within his family, that his wives "would be given to his neighbor and they will lie with him in broad daylight" (2 Samuel 12:11) and last but certainly not least, while David acted in secret, God would act publically. Our scriptures also say that David lost his second estate. It has been my experience through the years that most churches I attended believes that if you kill someone intentionally, you go straight to Hell. I don't know if this is the case or not, but I do believe that God has a pretty good way to make his point when needed. Especially with the irony of David's second son Solomon becoming king and the impact he had on the world...but that's a different story... and please if anyone feels I am in error of this, I would love to know and hear other opinions. :)

I don't think you are in error, but gave a good answer.

I would just add, that the Book of Mormon tells of thousands of Lamanites who, before they were converted, had "murdered" many of their brethren the Nephites (Alma 24:9). This sin was due to their traditions--being taught by their fathers that they should hate the Nephites and kill them. Yet, they were forgiven, and received into the church after repenting of their sins and being baptized.

This story, and many others of similar situation, speak to the fact that there are factors to be considered in a case by case basis that cannot be considered under a "rule of thumb" policy for the act of killing or murder. Such as:

1. To what degree is the person accountable for this deed?
2. To what degree has the person followed his own conscience for this deed?
3. To what degree is the person following orders, or traditions that he did not initiate himself?
4. To what degree did the person rebel against or follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost?

and probably some I've missed.

[Bill the Cat]

I don't think you are in error, but gave a good answer.

I would just add, that the Book of Mormon tells of thousands of Lamanites who, before they were converted, had "murdered" many of their brethren the Nephites (Alma 24:9). This sin was due to their traditions--being taught by their fathers that they should hate the Nephites and kill them. Yet, they were forgiven, and received into the church after repenting of their sins and being baptized.

This story, and many others of similar situation, speak to the fact that there are factors to be considered in a case by case basis that cannot be considered under a "rule of thumb" policy for the act of killing or murder. Such as:

1. To what degree is the person accountable for this deed?
2. To what degree has the person followed his own conscience for this deed?
3. To what degree is the person following orders, or traditions that he did not initiate himself?
4. To what degree did the person rebel against or follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost?

and probably some I've missed.

King David was not an unbeliever when he had Uriah murdered. Yet, the prophet declared that God had pardoned him. And there was absolutely no excuse for what David did.

[Sparko]

King David was not an unbeliever when he had Uriah murdered. Yet, the prophet declared that God had pardoned him. And there was absolutely no excuse for what David did.

Yeah but the LDS don't believe God forgave him even though the bible says so. They think he is going to hell.

But they don't think the same about Moses and Paul. They think God did forgive them. Seems to be "whatever let's us keep our priesthood must be allowed"

[OtherCheek]

Yeah but the LDS don't believe God forgave him even though the bible says so. They think he is going to hell.

A few points:

1st. Where does it say that God already "forgave" David? I know where it says, and reiterates twice, that God would not "LEAVE" his soul in hell, but where does it say that God already forgave him?

2nd. Does forgiveness of sin completely wipe out consequences? For example, if a young man gets a teenager pregnant outside of marriage, we would all agree that this can be forgiven, but when God forgives this sin, does He then erase the baby? Does God erase all ensuing consequences of the sin? If David has Uriah murdered, and God forgives David, does that mean that God restores Uriah and his family to where they once were?

3rd. Where does the entire body, as a whole, of Christianity stand on the issue of David. Do they all agree that he spends no time in hell? And what kind of "hell" do all Christians agree that David was talking about?

4th. Mormonism allows for the forgiveness of murder, did you know? This is in fact a far more liberal doctrine of forgiveness than those who criticize our beliefs concerning David. In fact, most murderers will eventually be forgiven except those murders who murder against the Holy Ghost and commit the unforgivable sin (and that is only unforgivable because the person has no spark of desire FOR forgiveness for ever more, and wants nothing to do with Jesus' redemption.)

5th. Here is pretty much the only statement from LDS scripture regarding David's sin:

Scripture Verse:

aDavid’s wives and concubines were bgiven unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the ckeys of this power; and in none of these things did he dsin against me save in the case of eUriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath ffallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I ggave them unto another, saith the Lord. (D&C 132:39)

No where does it say that David will never be forgiven. All it says is that he has fallen from his exaltation.

6th. In LDS doctrine, hell is not a forever permanent location for the souls of the wicked, except for the sons of perdition who are forever lost. Even David seemed to understand that he would not be LEFT there forever.

But they don't think the same about Moses and Paul. They think God did forgive them. Seems to be "whatever let's us keep our priesthood must be allowed"

As for Moses, I don't think he had yet received the law "thou shalt not kill", nor had he been converted to the Lord, nor had he yet received the Priesthood, and there is the fact that he was defending the life of one of his own, we also don't know what he had been taught as a child regarding the morality of taking a life, and so we don't know and can't judge his degree of accountability for that. David on the other had, knew fully well the law of God concerning murder AND adultery. More reason for this sin to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

As for Saul--Paul, we all know that Saul was an unbeliever at the time he was party to the stoning of certain saints.

[Cow Poke]

OC,
Just out of curiosity, where in the Bible do you get the notion that man is to be "exalted"?

[Sparko]

A few points:

1st. Where does it say that God already "forgave" David? I know where it says, and reiterates twice, that God would not "LEAVE" his soul in hell, but where does it say that God already forgave him?

2 Samuel 12:13
Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin.

2nd. Does forgiveness of sin completely wipe out consequences? For example, if a young man gets a teenager pregnant outside of marriage, we would all agree that this can be forgiven, but when God forgives this sin, does He then erase the baby? Does God erase all ensuing consequences of the sin? If David has Uriah murdered, and God forgives David, does that mean that God restores Uriah and his family to where they once were?

There are always temporal consequences to sin in THIS life, but when God forgives sin, it is not held against someone in the next life. Otherwise it would not be forgiven, would it?

3rd. Where does the entire body, as a whole, of Christianity stand on the issue of David. Do they all agree that he spends no time in hell? And what kind of "hell" do all Christians agree that David was talking about?

You will have to quote the verses you are talking about OC.

Christians believe David was forgiven because he repented.

4th. Mormonism allows for the forgiveness of murder, did you know? This is in fact a far more liberal doctrine of forgiveness than those who criticize our beliefs concerning David. In fact, most murderers will eventually be forgiven except those murders who murder against the Holy Ghost and commit the unforgivable sin (and that is only unforgivable because the person has no spark of desire FOR forgiveness for ever more, and wants nothing to do with Jesus' redemption.)

Not according to what Bill the Cat has quoted from the LDS scripture. I think official LDS scripture overrides your opinion on the matter, don't you?

5th. Here is pretty much the only statement from LDS scripture regarding David's sin:

Scripture Verse:

aDavid’s wives and concubines were bgiven unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the ckeys of this power; and in none of these things did he dsin against me save in the case of eUriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath ffallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I ggave them unto another, saith the Lord. (D&C 132:39)

No where does it say that David will never be forgiven. All it says is that he has fallen from his exaltation.

as BTC quoted, your own scripture says that murderers will never be forgiven. Put one and one together, OC.

6th. In LDS doctrine, hell is not a forever permanent location for the souls of the wicked, except for the sons of perdition who are forever lost. Even David seemed to understand that he would not be LEFT there forever.

so a murder is NOT a son of perdition? Then who is?

As for Moses, I don't think he had yet received the law "thou shalt not kill", nor had he been converted to the Lord, nor had he yet received the Priesthood, and there is the fact that he was defending the life of one of his own, we also don't know what he had been taught as a child regarding the morality of taking a life, and so we don't know and can't judge his degree of accountability for that. David on the other had, knew fully well the law of God concerning murder AND adultery. More reason for this sin to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

Is it your argument that unless there is a law given against an action then it is not a sin? Wasn't Cain judged by God for murdering Abel? There was no law against murder then, was there?

so if Moses was a murderer before he got the priesthood, then how did he get the priesthood to begin with? He couldn't have!

As for Saul--Paul, we all know that Saul was an unbeliever at the time he was party to the stoning of certain saints.

Eh? Are you now saying that only murders committed AFTER becoming a saint cannot be forgiven?

[Bill the Cat]

A few points:

1st. Where does it say that God already "forgave" David? I know where it says, and reiterates twice, that God would not "LEAVE" his soul in hell, but where does it say that God already forgave him?

I already posted it.

2 Sam 12:13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord!" Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin."

2nd. Does forgiveness of sin completely wipe out consequences? For example, if a young man gets a teenager pregnant outside of marriage, we would all agree that this can be forgiven, but when God forgives this sin, does He then erase the baby? Does God erase all ensuing consequences of the sin? If David has Uriah murdered, and God forgives David, does that mean that God restores Uriah and his family to where they once were?

No one claims that the earthly consequences of sin are wiped out. On the contrary. But, when the Lord removes our sin, it means we are justified (just as if i'd never sinned). David lost no exaltation because there is no such thing. The two states are redeemed and unredeemed.

3rd. Where does the entire body, as a whole, of Christianity stand on the issue of David. Do they all agree that he spends no time in hell? And what kind of "hell" do all Christians agree that David was talking about?

He repented. He was justified.

4th. Mormonism allows for the forgiveness of murder, did you know? This is in fact a far more liberal doctrine of forgiveness than those who criticize our beliefs concerning David. In fact, most murderers will eventually be forgiven except those murders who murder against the Holy Ghost and commit the unforgivable sin (and that is only unforgivable because the person has no spark of desire FOR forgiveness for ever more, and wants nothing to do with Jesus' redemption.)

Not according to McConkie.

5th. Here is pretty much the only statement from LDS scripture regarding David's sin:

Scripture Verse:

aDavid’s wives and concubines were bgiven unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the ckeys of this power; and in none of these things did he dsin against me save in the case of eUriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath ffallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I ggave them unto another, saith the Lord. (D&C 132:39)

No where does it say that David will never be forgiven. All it says is that he has fallen from his exaltation.

http://www.mormonwiki.com/King_David

There were sincere efforts at repentance however for members of the church murder is an unforgivable sin and he was not able to repent of that.

© source where applicable

The Miracle of Forgiveness

Another scriptural character responsible for murder--and this in conjunction with adultery--was the great King David. For his dreadful crime, all his life afterward he sought forgiveness. Some of the Psalms portray the anguish of his soul, yet David is still paying for his sin. He did not receive the resurrection at the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Peter declared that his body was still in the tomb. (See Acts 2:29-34.)
President Joseph F. Smith made this comment on David's position:

But even David, though guilty of adultery and murder of Uriah, obtained the promise that his soul should not be left in hell, which means, as I understand it, that even he shall escape the second death.

The Prophet Joseph Smith underlined the seriousness of the sin of murder for David as for all men, and the fact that there is no forgiveness for it.

© source where applicable

6th. In LDS doctrine, hell is not a forever permanent location for the souls of the wicked, except for the sons of perdition who are forever lost. Even David seemed to understand that he would not be LEFT there forever.

This verse you are vaguely referencing was quoted about Jesus as well. It referred to being dead in the ground. And David continued by saying:

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

So, if David "lost his exaltation", then he could not be in the presence of the Father to enjoy the pleasures of His presence. This is yet one more verse that exposes the falsehood in several Mormon doctrines.

As for Moses, I don't think he had yet received the law "thou shalt not kill", nor had he been converted to the Lord, nor had he yet received the Priesthood, and there is the fact that he was defending the life of one of his own, we also don't know what he had been taught as a child regarding the morality of taking a life, and so we don't know and can't judge his degree of accountability for that. David on the other had, knew fully well the law of God concerning murder AND adultery. More reason for this sin to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

McConkie says that murderers can't be baptized into the church. Moses was a murderer according to the Jews. If McConkie is correct, Moses could never have been baptized into the church, and thus, never received the priesthood. Same with Paul.

Additionally,

Doctrines of Salvation

How wonderful is the peace and the joy which fills the soul of the virtuous person! How
terrible are the torments of the unvirtuous! They shall have no place in the first resurrection.
When the final judgment comes, they are they who remain filthy still. They cannot enter the
Holy City, they are the "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and
idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie," who are cast out.

MURDERERS DENIED VICARIOUS ORDINANCES. We are called upon to assist in
saving our own families. This is the great duty the Lord has given to us, It is our privilege to
go back and trace our ancestors as far as we can and then go to the temple and do the work
for all of them. The Lord will judge whether they are worthy or not to receive what we have
done. Remember, though, we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for
murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives. These are left in
the hands of the Lord. If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and
not attempt to do work for him. . . .

© source where applicable

As for Saul--Paul, we all know that Saul was an unbeliever at the time he was party to the stoning of certain saints.

Then he should not have been allowed to be baptized, much less become an Apostle.

The Miracle of Forgiveness

Occasionally people who have murdered come to the Church requesting baptism, having come to some partial realization of the enormity of the crime. Missionaries do not knowingly baptize such people. Rather than assuming this great responsibility, they refer the problem to their mission presidents who in turn will wish to refer the matter to the First Presidency of the Church. This response is in line with Joseph Smith's comment on murderers, and particularly on those of the Savior:
Peter referred to the same subject on the day of Pentecost, but the multitude did not get the endowment that Peter had; but several days after the people asked, "What shall we do?" Peter says, "I would ye had done it ignorantly," speaking of crucifying the Lord, etc. He did not say to them, "Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins"; but he said, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."
This is the case with murderers. "They could not be baptized for the remission of sins, for they had shed innocent blood."

© source where applicable