premarital sex

[Glenn P]

Marriage is not a ceremony. That would be a wedding.

[AlphaBravo]

I think the best approach would be to appeal to the practical side of things.

Exactly, there is not much point in exposing your most intimate beliefs to these creeps. That will only give them more fodder to abuse you. They can know you are a Christian but don't preach at them unless you have reason to believe it will be received positively. Many christian values, particularly sexual purity, have their root in pure common sense and pragmatism: everything that Soyeong said plus the aspect of happiness. They are not happy. You are happy. Your future spouse will love you for your purity and you will not have the financial/emotional/health/family/psychological/sexual baggage and hangups that your coworkers will have. This can all be argued from psychology/sociology/health 101 without ever mentioning the foundation in the bible.

[Josheb]

As some of you might know, I started a job at Walmart recently, and nearly all of the guys I work with don't have that much respect for . . . .well, most things, one of them being women. The level of obnoxiousness and comments regarding sexuality has been quite staggering, and I've been putting up with obnoxious and difficult people my whole life and still find these guys a bit overwhelming. I couldn't even repeat any of their comments without getting banned from T-web. So being around these guys for 8 hours a day got me thinking about sexuality.

If you change the way you think you will change the way you act. "For as [a man] thinks within himself, so he is." "Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals." (Pr. 23:7, 1 Cor. 15:33, respectively). Allowing them to effect changes in your thinking will lead to changes in your conduct. For whatever reason, that Walmart for this time is where God has placed you. Take James 1:2-15 and Romans 5:3-5 with you to work each day, if need be. Better still, take 1 Pet. 2:5-9 with you and remember your nobility in Christ.

I'm probably the only virgin in my work crew, and I might also be the oldest

So what? Expect it. Ignore it. Gird and guard your mind and your heart. We do not think the way the world thinks and we do not live the way the world lives. Every Christian must learn this lesson. Many fail. Don't be that guy.

and if these guys find out I can easily imagine them making a mockery of me and asking me why I haven't just gotten a hold of some girl, out of disbelief that I haven't gotten laid yet (they know I'm in Bible College too).If I was to have to answer that, my first answer would be that I simply had no social skills in high school and college, so I just could not "get any." By the standards of our culture, I was truly a "loser."

Then don't tell them. It's none of their business. Or lie and lose your won integrity. Or let one of those women give you a freebie. But read Proverbs chapters 5 through 8 first.

But now my reason is simply because "the Bible says." I've come to a point where I trust the moral standards and guidance of Scripture that I believe that even if I don't understand why God demands certain things of us that ultimately there is a flawless and perfectly good reason behind it.

Well said. There is scientific evidence to support what the Bible says, but I'll get to that in a minute.

But the guys I work with are obviously not going to accept that. And to be honest, I do not really understand the reasoning behind the "no sex until marriage" principle myself. And I obviously cannot defend myself or the Bible on this one, and ultimately, I can not reveal the majestic character of God to them, which is ultimately what I'm trying to do with these guys.

Here's the scientific evidence: pre-marital sex and cohabitation (especially serial cohabitation) are highly correlated to divorce. Now, that's correlation, not causation, but the connection is still prevalent. In addition, research into brain chemistry has shown that women are irreversibly changed by their first sexual intercourse encounter. Not only is the hymen breached but a flood of chemicals (most notably oxytocin) wsh through her brain causing feelings of attachement. That process is never again replicated in exactly that fashion as the first time. Men, conversely, are more task oriented and the old adage, "you don't value what you don't earn" applies and studies show that men don't value easy women the way they do those who have respect for themselves and hold men to higher standards. You're correct, though: your co-workers are not inclined to accept either scripture or the facts. I will tell you another bit of anecdotal evidence: every individual young woman with whom I've worked in pre-marital counseling has stated unequivocally that she wishes she had waited. Now, I concede that's anecdotal evidence, and the sample size is small, and I am unaware of any objective research to support that claim but it is unifromly my professional experience.

So help me out. Why is premarital sex a sin? What makes it immoral (aside from the fact that God commanded it and prohibits promiscuousness)? What is the psychology behind sexual activity before marriage vs. sex within marriage?

Well, aside from the information I've just provided the Biblical model for marriage is as a temporal reflection of a divine relationship: God exists already-in-relationship and one day we, the bride, will one day wed the groom in a heavenly wedding feast! The symbolism is pretty linear: adultery is parallel to idolatry. Sex isn't the super-fantastic-unbelievably-utopian experience it is portrayed to be in some media. It's pretty cool, though. It will change you.One of the most fundamental apsect of any successful marriage is that relationship's uniqueness: every married couple has sex, frets over a mortgage, argues over the checkbook, struggles with parenting, etc. but no two couples do it exactly alike. The way you do it will be different than the way I and my wife do it. Preserve the uniqueness. Protect it. It makes the two of you special. Your cowrokers have lost that and it will never be regained exactly as it is with virgins.

And how do I make this biblical mandate appeal to these guys? Please help me out here, because I consider the guys I work with as a mission field, and no thanks to the church or Bible College, I have not been trained in any way to deal with guys like these. If I can get these guys to face the reality of God's sexuality, in a way that really gets them thinking, and in a way that they actually respect, then that just might be the best answer to prayer I will ever have gotten.

Let God take responsibility for His blessings and curses. Your job is to live rightly and present the gospel in thought, word, and deed. As you noted above, they're not likely to be persuaded... until God changes their hearts. When God rends the fabric of time and space to reveal Himself to them and call them to salvation they will be coming to you to ask you about God. Make sure you've not compromised your witness with hypocrisy or legalism.

NOTE: If I respond with more critical questions, it's just me playing devil's advocate to get a more refined answer.

LOL! Ask away. It's worth everything it costs. ;)

I strongly recommend the following: "Restoration of Men" by Karl Duff, "Maximized Manhood" by Edwin Lewis Cole, and "Every Man's Battle" by Stephen Arterburn (although I find this last one a bit week).

[fm93]

Here's the scientific evidence: pre-marital sex and cohabitation (especially serial cohabitation) are highly correlated to divorce. Now, that's correlation, not causation, but the connection is still prevalent. In addition, research into brain chemistry has shown that women are irreversibly changed by their first sexual intercourse encounter. Not only is the hymen breached but a flood of chemicals (most notably oxytocin) wsh through her brain causing feelings of attachement. That process is never again replicated in exactly that fashion as the first time.

Interesting. Where can I find more information about this study?

studies show that men don't value easy women the way they do those who have respect for themselves and hold men to higher standards.

Again, where can I find these studies?

[Josheb]

Interesting. Where can I find more information about this study? Again, where can I find these studies?

I'd start with Google or one of the science search engines. The research abundant and very consistent over the last 50-60 years. One study in the late 90/early 00s found that there was a 4% decrease in divorce rates amongst one-time co-habitors in comparison to repeat (or serial) cohabiters and it is believed by some the correlation will decrease as society increasingly tolerates cohabitation, but I personally don't think that change will continue or continuously linear (the rate was 2% of couples in 1979, 7% 2009). Marriage has been around a loooong time and suffered much worse divorce rates than the current 48% for brief periods. Google will most likely get you to articles about the articles pertaining to the research and you'll have to scroll ot the bottom to find the references. Access to a research database (like ebsco, eric, or psyclist) would solve the problem but that requires money and commitment. I believe one easily accessible resource is David Popenoe's "The Top Ten Myths of Divorce." I believe a pdf version can be found online. The 1992 National Health and Social Life Survey is also probably available for download. Rhoades and Stanley (2009) is more recent. Linda Waite is another such researcher. John Gottman does specifically do that research but his wrok may provide such references. Also look for effects on family and chlldren (not good). As far as the oxytocin link I'd start with Google, too. The articles will come right up; the link is well-established. I haven't read it but I suspect "Hooked" by McIlhaney and Bush will provide what you're looking for. I also strongly recommend "Unhooked" by Laura Sessions-Stepp, although that is not specifically about brain chemistry. Any book on gender differences, especially pertaining to sex or marital relationships will provide info on how men and women value the relationship differently. Desmond Morris' "The Naked Ape" is an old book but probably still considered a classic (if decidedly not Christian). Louann Brizendine's work will probably help. Remember that much of this is esoteric neuroscience and sociology. For a non-scientific Biblical rendering I recommend "Restoration of Men" by Karl Duff. That should get you started.

[Teluog]

If you change the way you think you will change the way you act. "For as [a man] thinks within himself, so he is." "Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals." (Pr. 23:7, 1 Cor. 15:33, respectively). Allowing them to effect changes in your thinking will lead to changes in your conduct. For whatever reason, that Walmart for this time is where God has placed you. Take James 1:2-15 and Romans 5:3-5 with you to work each day, if need be. Better still, take 1 Pet. 2:5-9 with you and remember your nobility in Christ.

Ya, it's difficult that I have to spend 8 hours with them almost everyday, but thank God I've managed to get and maintain their respect without being disrespectful which was and is really hard to do. Please pray for me.

Then don't tell them. It's none of their business. Or lie and lose your won integrity. Or let one of those women give you a freebie. But read Proverbs chapters 5 through 8 first.

It's impossible to not tell them. They bring it up all the time and I work with them 4-5 days a week. Honestly I think they haven't asked me directly because they just assume I'm not a virgin like 98% of the population. But what I need is a reason WHY I should wait, otherwise you would come off as some sort of wuss who can't "get any"--which doesn't provide a strong testimony of Christian character since Christians are supposed to be bold and courageous and not be afraid of sex (which unfortunately the church to an extent has taught us to feel)--or a blind sheep who just blindly and legalistically follows the tradition of the church because the Church and the Bible "say so" with no decision of my own to make or actual reasoning to back myself up--which portrays the Church, Christianity, Bible etc as legalistic and almost cult-like (can't make your own decisions, must be told what to do). You get the point. Premarital is huge in our culture, and the Church as I've seen it has done absolutely nothing to help Christians deal with this except "the Bible says, so don't do it, or else...".

Here's the scientific evidence: pre-marital sex and cohabitation (especially serial cohabitation) are highly correlated to divorce. Now, that's correlation, not causation, but the connection is still prevalent.

You're going to have to give the references to these studies. I also need to know what these details about this correlation is and what it implies.

In addition, research into brain chemistry has shown that women are irreversibly changed by their first sexual intercourse encounter. Not only is the hymen breached but a flood of chemicals (most notably oxytocin) wsh through her brain causing feelings of attachement. That process is never again replicated in exactly that fashion as the first time.

Very interesting, and actually a couple guys at work said the same thing. But what about the man's connection?

As for replicating that first experience, this doesn't indicate that premarital sex is wrong or harmful. That you can't replicate that same first experience holds true if you have more sex with the same person or with another person, before or after marriage. The same could be said about having chocolate for the first time. Just because you enjoyed dark chocolate for the first time doesn't indicate whether or not you should stick to dark chocolate for the rest of your life or try out milk chocolate and Hershey's Kisses and Mars bars and Reese's Peanut Butter cups! There has to be more to premarital sex then.

This also doesn't go far enough to speak on those who have broken up or divorced, healed and gotten over past partners (by that I mean they've successfully disconnected from those past partners and healed from any emotional baggage). Can or can they not then have a new "first experience" with a new partner?

Men, conversely, are more task oriented...

But does that mean we don't connect with the partners we have sex with? And is this task-orientation/disconnectedness a good thing or a product of how men are brought up in this culture or have been brought up throughout all of human history?

And again, I need references.

and the old adage, "you don't value what you don't earn" applies and studies show that men don't value easy women the way they do those who have respect for themselves and hold men to higher standards.

I've never even heard of this adage first of all (but I grew up in a bit of a cave so maybe that's just me, also, need references) but I question if these studies included the type of men that I work with because the men I work with explicitly love girls who are easy, and quite frankly there are a TON of guys like this in our society so I question the truth of this study.

You're correct, though: your co-workers are not inclined to accept either scripture or the facts.

That might be because they have neither be given an explanation of this scriptural principle nor the facts. I haven't been given the facts either, except for what you've stated so far but I and the world need more than this. We need details, data, stats, etc. And lots of it. After all, sexuality is a pervasive, deep, core central part of what it means to be a living creature, as is morality. Apologists have all kinds of detailed and thorough research on the resurrection and why skeptics should believe, but what is out there on the topic of premarital sex?

I will tell you another bit of anecdotal evidence: every individual young woman with whom I've worked in pre-marital counseling has stated unequivocally that she wishes she had waited. Now, I concede that's anecdotal evidence, and the sample size is small, and I am unaware of any objective research to support that claim but it is unifromly my professional experience.

Actually my girlfriend knows a few women who've said the same thing. But again, what about men? And again, objective research would be nice.

the Biblical model for marriage is as a temporal reflection of a divine relationship: God exists already-in-relationship and one day we, the bride, will one day wed the groom in a heavenly wedding feast! The symbolism is pretty linear: adultery is parallel to idolatry.

I'm not following here.

One of the most fundamental apsect of any successful marriage is that relationship's uniqueness: every married couple has sex, frets over a mortgage, argues over the checkbook, struggles with parenting, etc. but no two couples do it exactly alike. The way you do it will be different than the way I and my wife do it. Preserve the uniqueness. Protect it. It makes the two of you special. Your cowrokers have lost that and it will never be regained exactly as it is with virgins.

Again, this isn't conclusive. The sex you have with person A is unique between the two, but it would also be unique if you then went to have sex with person B. It would be unique between you and A, and unique between you and B. This doesn't indicate that going on to have sex with B is wrong or harmful. A guy at work could ask, "What's wrong with having as many unique experiences with as many people as I want?"

Let God take responsibility for His blessings and curses. Your job is to live rightly and present the gospel in thought, word, and deed. As you noted above, they're not likely to be persuaded... until God changes their hearts. When God rends the fabric of time and space to reveal Himself to them and call them to salvation they will be coming to you to ask you about God. Make sure you've not compromised your witness with hypocrisy or legalism.

Of course, and that's what I'm trying to do, but I don't have the thoughts and words to do so. And that's what I'm on here asking for. Until then I don't really have anything except legalism as the reason why I go by the principle.

I strongly recommend the following: "Restoration of Men" by Karl Duff, "Maximized Manhood" by Edwin Lewis Cole, and "Every Man's Battle" by Stephen Arterburn (although I find this last one a bit week).

Will do when I get the blasted chance (I have way too many books to read as it is)!

I just noticed your response to fm93 too. I'll try to check some of that out whenever I can.

[Phat8594]

But the key is the same: confidence.

I agree confidence is needed. Its amazing how much difference there is between strong conviction and timid belief in terms of how it affects those around you. Clearly you don't have to bash other people, but you do have to own your beliefs and what you say. The Holy Spirit has a funny way of convicting people through your witness.

Needless to say...actually living your convictions is huge as well.

[Phat8594]

So being around these guys for 8 hours a day got me thinking about sexuality. I'm probably the only virgin in my work crew, and I might also be the oldest, and if these guys find out I can easily imagine them making a mockery of me and asking me why I haven't just gotten a hold of some girl, out of disbelief that I haven't gotten laid yet (they know I'm in Bible College too).

But the guys I work with are obviously not going to accept that.

Honestly, you just need to own your beliefs. As BPN said in his post, confidence is key. Let them razz you, let them make fun of you....but don't let that make you embarrassed of your beliefs. Stand strong. Although they may not show it on the outside, I am sure they are being convicted on the inside.

Did you know that often times Christianity has had some of its greatest growth during times of persecution?

It is a powerful witness to see someone who holds to their beliefs under persecution or ridicule. The Holy Spirit can convict them of things you never could.

And how do I make this biblical mandate appeal to these guys?

Through the witness of your life.


On a side note, there is something I like to make clear to unbelievers (in one on one conversations, where the door has been opened):

1. God is the one who created sex. So sex is obviously a good thing....it just needs to be done within proper context. (most people will agree to some sort of proper context... i.e. who is gonna say the what Sandusky is accused of is proper context)

2. God is not a killjoy. His rules and guidelines are not to thwart any sort of enjoyment in life, but rather to allow us to live life with more enjoyment.

3. With sex, we can definitely see this as the case....think of all the emotional issues, drama, std's, unwanted pregnancies that come from premarital sex. (these issues are largely if not entirely avoided in a healthy marital context)

[Teluog]

I think I need to make it clear that the issue I'm bringing up is not one of me being persecuted, but of having answers and reasons to back up beliefs.

[Syla]

It is immoral because God commanded it and prohibits promiscuousness.
God is the creator of the Universe, it is he we must each answer to.
What better reason do you need?

I realise they won't get that, but it remains the truth.

[siliconwafer]

It is immoral because God commanded it and prohibits promiscuousness.
God is the creator of the Universe, it is he we must each answer to.
What better reason do you need?

I realise they won't get that, but it remains the truth.

Some non-Christians ask this question: Is there a reason why God commanded to refrain from fornication and promiscuousness?

How would you answer that question posed by a non-Christian? I could show the non-Christian where it says in the Bible that we should avoid those things, but the non-Christian can always ask that previously mentioned question.

[Dracula Girl]

Some non-Christians ask this question: Is there a reason why God commanded to refrain from fornication and promiscuousness?

How would you answer that question posed by a non-Christian? I could show the non-Christian where it says in the Bible that we should avoid those things, but the non-Christian can always ask that previously mentioned question.

I saw a poster at my old college that said that one in five people gets and STD. I remember thinking with disgust that this is my dating pool. There is a reason to keep things zipped. There is value to waiting, like emotional protection in the event of a breakup, or respect for the person and valuing them before pleasure, or growth of other kinds of intimacy first so that the relationship truly deepens further...

[Epoetker]

Some non-Christians ask this question: Is there a reason why God commanded to refrain from fornication and promiscuousness?

How would you answer that question posed by a non-Christian? I could show the non-Christian where it says in the Bible that we should avoid those things, but the non-Christian can always ask that previously mentioned question.

It's almost exactly backwards: The actual religion makes the command to not fornicate so that the sex act is emotionally useful and psychologically renewing and more universally experienced among men.

The worldly wisdom says you should have sex for the transcendent spiritual feelings of the experience, usually while drunk(on spirits! ) . And then you should brag about the experience so your friends can spiritually uplift you with their affirmations.

This is precisely where you'd expect someone who says they're 'spiritual but not religious' to end up.

[Zero Tolerance]

And there are some things that lose their savor when practiced with just anyone. Especially an act that tends to tie you to time, place, person, history of the same act, progeny who actually look like you, family of people now invested in progeny who actually look like you, the difference between feelings and actions, the way these feelings an actions change when you habitually do certain things, and the fact that you now have someone who is dealt with most effectively by you and no one else. The first love IS the deepest, as most novel experiences are.

But since liberals are fundamentally dishonest about everything involving nature and anything that would have the smallest chance of offending feminism, their true Goddess, here's the straight dope from an actual pick-up artist:



Marriage is actually one of those institutions that effectively scales up when practiced by large numbers of people. Which is a more important thing than you might think. There are very, very very, VERY few other institutions of a civil, commercial, or charitable nature of which that could be said. Heck, the Church is STILL trying to get its structure down right.

That quote is amazing, and I completely agree. I'm married and I still have trouble thinking about women as more than pleasure toys whose sole existence is for men.

[biribiri]

Re: Fred Flanders comment (3rd in the thread)? That little fact is not generally known. ... ... Do you know the scriptures that support the claim?

Divorce stats are also a good argument, as someone else noted. The chances of a successful third marriage are much lower than the chances of a successful second marriage are much lower than the chances of a successful first marriage. Sex partnerships outside of socially recognised marriages have a similar (though not as drastic) effect on the prospects of a successful first (socially recognised) marriage.