A Question

[Kthulu]

I participate at The Thinking Atheist forum sometimes, but I thought I'd ask a question here. There seems to be a lot more interaction between Christians and atheists here, so it seemed like a better place to eek-out some answers.

The question is this: can debate between atheists and Christians be helpful? If so, how? If not, why?

Thanks,
Kthulu

[lilpixieofterror]

Yes and no, it really depends on the situation.

[Kthulu]

Yes and no, it really depends on the situation.

Okay. Take this board, for instance. When you're debating issues of faith with atheists do you find it helpful to your personal outlook, or detrimental? Why?

[Adam]

The question is this: can debate between atheists and Christians be helpful? If so, how? If not, why?

I don't see it as helpful; both sides are just talking past one another. Each tries to destroy the opponent, but doesn't present its own position in terms the other finds tenable.
Christians don't explain themselves in terms atheists recognize, because of what they accept beforehand about the Bible.
Atheists don't explain themselves in terms Christians recognize, because of what they accept beforehand about Evolution.

[Soyeong]

Hold on, I think we first need to have a debate about whether debates about debates being helpful is indeed helpful.

On a more serious note, it seems to me that the helpfulness of debates correlates to the desire to understand opposing views and the ability to interact with them. On the other hand, debates are generally less helpful when people commit logical fallacies, are antagonistic, play stupid/troll, refuse to define terms, and refuse to admit they or their position is wrong about something. Thinking people are generally less afraid to consider the fact that they could be wrong, even about important things, and are more willing to do their best to honestly evaluate positions they disagree with. In doing so, they either solidify their own beliefs or modify them to being one step closer to the truth.

[phaedrus]

I don't see it as helpful; both sides are just talking past one another. Each tries to destroy the opponent, but doesn't present its own position in terms the other finds tenable.
Christians don't explain themselves in terms atheists recognize, because of what they accept beforehand about the Bible.
Atheists don't explain themselves in terms Christians recognize, because of what they accept beforehand about Evolution.

Just an aside. Many Christians, probably even the majority, accept evolution as being compatible with Christianity. Therefore the dividing line is not evolution, but belief in a personal God.

I've seen and participated in interesting and fruitful 'discussions' here that have made me think. On the other hand, in explicit 'debates' I find everyone seems to put on their helmets and they often end in personal name calling. These sort of things I find not particularly useful.

[GakuseiDon]

I don't see it as helpful; both sides are just talking past one another. Each tries to destroy the opponent, but doesn't present its own position in terms the other finds tenable.
Christians don't explain themselves in terms atheists recognize, because of what they accept beforehand about the Bible.
Atheists don't explain themselves in terms Christians recognize, because of what they accept beforehand about Evolution.

Well, as a Christian who accepts evolution (which I suspect is the same for many Christians on this board) and doesn't think the Bible is the literal Word of God, I don't recognize those statements either, I'm afraid. Perhaps it's not just atheists and Christians who talk past each other.

When talking on matters regarding history, science, logic and philosophy, I think that theists and atheists can be involved in fruitful discussions (I'm not saying they always do, just that they can) Where they talk past each other IMHO is on matters of the nature of God. In my experience, many atheists think of God as a creature like any other. I call this the "God as creature" fallacy. That's why atheists talk about "the Sky Wizard"; because they seem to feel that Christians believe that God is a creature that lives in the sky, centralized in one location, an additional extra to the universe. And this is curious, since I suspect that many of them are ex-theists who would have disagreed with that notion of God before they became atheists. Perhaps they were amongst those theists who believe in God but don't let this affect their day, though I don't see how that is possible. I think CS Lewis put it best: "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."

I've also found that many ex-theists were Christians who didn't believe that the Bible was the literal Word of God, but suddenly -- as atheists -- they now claim that Christians MUST believe the Bible to be literally true in order for Christianity to have any validity. It's as though belief in a personal God who walks with us moment by moment is a concept foreign to Christianity. The Internet has a powerful influence on these ex-theists.

[shunyadragon]

I participate at The Thinking Atheist forum sometimes, but I thought I'd ask a question here. There seems to be a lot more interaction between Christians and atheists here, so it seemed like a better place to eek-out some answers.

The question is this: can debate between atheists and Christians be helpful? If so, how? If not, why?

Thanks,
Kthulu

Welcome to Tweb!!!

In the whole history of Tweb, the apologist section has been the debating and discussion section between theists, atheists, agnostics, deists, and other views, primarily between the atheists/agnostics and traditional theists. It is most used section of Tweb. There are some very good knowledgeable folk here on both sides, and a mixture of trolls, nuts and fruit cakes. Is it worthwhile? Well it is communication even rarely effective. I on the other hand have learned a lot participating in the threads and often just observing.

[shunyadragon]

I don't see it as helpful; both sides are just talking past one another. Each tries to destroy the opponent, but doesn't present its own position in terms the other finds tenable.

How do you do things differently. the last statement below would be problematic.


[quote] Christians don't explain themselves in terms atheists recognize, because of what they accept beforehand about the Bible.[quote]

Do you?

Atheists don't explain themselves in terms Christians recognize, because of what they accept beforehand about Evolution.

Is evolution an issue here??? Many theists believe in evolution.

[fm93]

The question is this: can debate between atheists and Christians be helpful? If so, how? If not, why?

They're always helpful, but in different ways. Some people here are reasonable and contribute to constructive discussions by offering insights, evidences, etc. Other people are helpful because when they "argue", they demonstrate the sheer idiocy of certain atheist arguments.

[phaedrus]

They're always helpful, but in different ways. Some people here are reasonable and contribute to constructive discussions by offering insights, evidences, etc. Other people are helpful because when they "argue", they demonstrate the sheer idiocy of certain atheist arguments.

Do only atheists make idiotic arguments? Would you like links?

[GakuseiDon]

Do only atheists make idiotic arguments? Would you like links?

But why suggest that fm93 is only talking about atheists? Your comment here can only drag this thread down into a spiral of claim and counter-claim.

I think this is also a problem on Internet boards. Some people -- atheists and theists -- are spoiling for a fight rather than for meaningful discourse. It's easy to do that due to the anonymity of the internet. A good rule of thumb: treat the other person as you would if you'd met them down at the local pub for a drink, and you are talking to them face-to-face. You'll still get fights, but unless you are a complete jerk, you won't get them every time.

And on a totally unrelated matter: hi, littlepixieofterror! :)

[shunyadragon]

But why suggest that fm93 is only talking about atheists?

Because that is what he referred to.

[seanD]

I participate at The Thinking Atheist forum sometimes, but I thought I'd ask a question here. There seems to be a lot more interaction between Christians and atheists here, so it seemed like a better place to eek-out some answers.

The question is this: can debate between atheists and Christians be helpful? If so, how? If not, why?

Thanks,
Kthulu

I think it's helpful overall, though it can sometimes become a waste of time. Me personally, it sort of allows me to refine my arguments, or get a better understanding of arguments I"m not too familiar with. It also let's me know if there are any skeptical arguments I've missed or haven't considered. Bolsters my faith even more when I discover there are none.

[phaedrus]

But why suggest that fm93 is only talking about atheists? Your comment here can only drag this thread down into a spiral of claim and counter-claim.

I think this is also a problem on Internet boards. Some people -- atheists and theists -- are spoiling for a fight rather than for meaningful discourse. It's easy to do that due to the anonymity of the internet. A good rule of thumb: treat the other person as you would if you'd met them down at the local pub for a drink, and you are talking to them face-to-face. You'll still get fights, but unless you are a complete jerk, you won't get them every time.

And on a totally unrelated matter: hi, littlepixieofterror! :)

Um, you did read his post didn't you? I'm not 'spoiling for a fight'. I'm simply suggesting stupidity is not limited to one people of any particular worldview.

This is the sentence to which I was referring

Other people are helpful because when they "argue", they demonstrate the sheer idiocy of certain atheist arguments.

Chill.