The Divine Name: how to respect it

[moreta]

Interesting info. Thanks.

It is forbidden to destroy a synagogue or anything else which is used in worship, including G-d’s name.

What, then, does one do with a Torah scroll that has become unusable? Or even a synagogue that has been damaged in a storm or fire? I daresay that the greatest of care is taken with the scroll, but eventually it would would no longer be acceptable or appropriate. Is there a ceremony for retiring or disposing of the Torah like there is for respectfully burning American flags when they are to tattered and worn to display?

[Tanakh Keeper]

Interesting info. Thanks.

What, then, does one do with a Torah scroll that has become unusable? ..... I daresay that the greatest of care is taken with the scroll, but eventually it would would no longer be acceptable or appropriate. Is there a ceremony for retiring or disposing of the Torah like there is for respectfully burning American flags when they are to tattered and worn to display?

Yes, eventually Torah scrolls fall apart and degrade. There is a ceremony in which they are buried in a Jewish cemetary.

[moreta]

Thanks.

[Salty]

The prophet I know as Isaiah is (IIRC) Yehoshua in my Tanakh.

I don't think you are recalling correctly. Isaiah is Yeshayahu, yod-shin-ayin-yod-he-vav. Yehoshua would be Joshua, yod-he-vav-shin-ayin.

Some transliterations appear to differ just to make distinctions between people; IIRC "Jesus", "Joshua" and "Hosea" are actually identical in Hebrew.

Well, almost. I've seen Jesus' actual name transliterated as Yehoshua, Yeshua, Y'shua and others. Hosea is similar except for the initial yod, I'm not sure that qualifies it as "the same" as it depends on what the root word(s) is/are.

I don't consider the Arabic "Allah" to be equivalent, as that originated as the name of a particular deity among many.

Isn't that just the Arabic form of El?

[Salty]

The Septuagint did not omit letters. It seems to be a much later practice.

Your point is irrelevant, since this prohibition does not apply to Tanackh, as it contains the Tetragrammaton. IIRC, old Torahs are buried, not destroyed, burned or thrown in trash dumps.

[Bill the Cat]

Your point is irrelevant, since this prohibition does not apply to Tanackh, as it contains the Tetragrammaton.

So, where does the prohibition come from?

[One Bad Pig]

I don't think you are recalling correctly. Isaiah is Yeshayahu, yod-shin-ayin-yod-he-vav. Yehoshua would be Joshua, yod-he-vav-shin-ayin.

You're correct, I wasn't recalling correctly.

Isn't that just the Arabic form of El?

Could be. I hadn't seen that explanation before.

[Salty]

So, where does the prohibition come from?

Wasn't that answered in the OP? Or am I misunderstanding your question?

[Bill the Cat]

Wasn't that answered in the OP? Or am I misunderstanding your question?

Yes, it was. Although I think this is taking this verse WAY beyond what God meant. The context of the verse is destroying false gods and any mention of them so as not to worship them in idolatry. Typing the O in God and accidentally deleting it is in no way similar to puropsefully destroying an asherah pole so that you won't end up worshipping it. If we take this as a prohibition of all of the things God told the Jews to do to the pagan gods, then this particular verse becomes a problem:

you shall cut down the engraved images of their gods


If you are to do the opposite with YHWH, then this would mean that they were NOT to destroy any image of YHWH, despite the command to not make any engraved image of Him.

[Salty]

Yes, it was. Although I think this is taking this verse WAY beyond what God meant.

You are, of course, free to think what you like, to agree or disagree with the sages. TK offered this bit of knowledge, I think, in order to explain why he and I and other Jews and Ger Toshavim replace the O with a hyphen. There are some TWebbers who accuse us of being disrespectful and/or take it as a sign of a lack of confidence in our beliefs. This explanation puts the lie to those accusations.

The context of the verse is destroying false gods and any mention of them so as not to worship them in idolatry. Typing the O in God and accidentally deleting it is in no way similar to puropsefully destroying an asherah pole so that you won't end up worshipping it. If we take this as a prohibition of all of the things God told the Jews to do to the pagan gods, then this particular verse becomes a problem:

you shall cut down the engraved images of their gods

If you are to do the opposite with YHWH, then this would mean that they were NOT to destroy any image of YHWH, despite the command to not make any engraved image of Him.

I think your mistake is to consider the prohibition "You shall not do so to the Lord, your G-d" as the opposite of what was commanded to be done to the pagan gods. It isn't, it's just plug'n'play. Just take that prohibition as stated and mentally replace "do so" with the things that were commanded done and you'll understand. I.e., "You shall not destroy from all the places where the Lord, your G-d is worshipped; you shall not tear down His altars or destroy His name from those places." Seems pretty clear to me: do not destroy His name.

[Bill the Cat]

You are, of course, free to think what you like, to agree or disagree with the sages. TK offered this bit of knowledge, I think, in order to explain why he and I and other Jews and Ger Toshavim replace the O with a hyphen. There are some TWebbers who accuse us of being disrespectful and/or take it as a sign of a lack of confidence in our beliefs. This explanation puts the lie to those accusations.

Please do not include me in those people. I honestly have no problem with it. If that is how you choose to address the LORD, then, address Him as such. You will get no condemnation from me over it.

I think your mistake is to consider the prohibition "You shall not do so to the Lord, your G-d" as the opposite of what was commanded to be done to the pagan gods. It isn't, it's just plug'n'play. Just take that prohibition as stated and mentally replace "do so" with the things that were commanded done and you'll understand. I.e., "You shall not destroy from all the places where the Lord, your G-d is worshipped; you shall not tear down His altars or destroy His name from those places." Seems pretty clear to me: do not destroy His name.

I see it more as not destroying buildings that are dedicated to Him moreso than His name on a discussion board. But,

[Salty]

Please do not include me in those people. I honestly have no problem with it. If that is how you choose to address the LORD, then, address Him as such. You will get no condemnation from me over it.

Nae, and I hope you don't think I was including you in that very small group, for I don't.

I see it more as not destroying buildings that are dedicated to Him moreso than His name on a discussion board. But,

And that's to the letter, for sure, the simple and plain context. I think it's a logical extrapolation that we should avoid destroying His name wherever It is written. But I don't see it as disrespectful if others don't see it that way.

Hmm, if there had been discussion boards 3500+ years ago, would they have been included in the command to destroy the names of the pagan gods?

[gharfish]

It's too bad that YHWH has become so well known on television and the internet as Yahweh. Now that it can be pronounced, this name of the creator God looks and sounds like something weird, and just made up. And it easily becomes the butt of word jokes and visual gags. It hasn't any proper dinction, looking and reading like the boring contrived names of countless gods in human history.

Let's drop the vowels here on tweb forever or/and let's get back to I AM !


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[Teluog]

Or maybe we could switch over to the philosophical term: Necess-ry B-ing

[Teluog]

I like OBP's first point: the Scriptures were originally oral, and thus pronounced. So today, how do Jews pronounce "G-d"? Do they skip the vowel when they speak as well? If not, why not, that is, why omit a letter in writing but not in speaking the divine Name?