Is Allah Capricious?

[saladfingers]

I have often hear the charge that Allah is carpicious. In what way is He, or is He not capicious? Where does this accusation come from? A quick Google search on "capricious Allah" reveals that there is much written on the subject, but I still can't get a grip on just why Christians charge Allah as being capricious.

[saladfingers]

Can Allah lie? Or is He bound by His own Holiness like the Christian God Elohim is, not being able to lie or break a promise? Christan apologists make this claim. Is it true? Is Allah capricious? Can one have assurance of Heaven, like the Judeo-Christian God gives? Is Allah bound by his own nature? Can He make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it? The Christian God is a perfect Holy standard with limitations...the limits of His own Holiness. How does Allah compare?

I just heard a Christian recently make the claim that Allah can, and does send people to Hell on whims. And that is why, they say, Islam is a religion of fear.


thanks!

[shunyadragon]

I have often hear the charge that Allah is carpicious. In what way is He, or is He not capicious? Where does this accusation come from? A quick Google search on "capricious Allah" reveals that there is much written on the subject, but I still can't get a grip on just why Christians charge Allah as being capricious.

The description of God(s) in both the Bible and the Koran can be interpreted as caricious from the perspective of the writers in ancient times simply because God(s) were often described with the attributes of earthly rulers.

[bartdanr]

I don't think That the Biblical God cannot lie: See 1 Kings 22:23


23Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Well, technically HE didn't lie, but rather sent a lying spirit...tomato, to-mah-to.

There's also the question of God saying He'd do something and then not...for example, the curse on Jechoniah's seed, not destroying Israel when He said He would because Moses intervened, saying the Levitical priesthood was forever but replacing it with Christ's priesthood, etc.

If one tries to look for capriciousness in Allah, he can find it in YHWH as well. The essence of religious debate safely revolves around such mischaracterizations.

[saladfingers]

It also says in the Bible that God "will send them a strong delusion", and also that He creates good as well as evil.

[Epoetker]

Or perhaps the Divine was often invoked by ancient Jews in both the ways you're talking about and ways that we Westerners would invoke the 'laws of nature.' This does not mean that God=Nature in all instances, nor does it deny the possibility for the presently unexplained.

The main difference between Judaism and Islam on the subject is the wide, wide, wide, WIDE over-use of In'shallah for EVERYTHING among the more serious varieties of Muslims. Allah is not merely capricious in Islam, you can do nothing apart from him. Right or wrong, whatever happens, happens In'shallah.

Muslims tend to find it much easier to convert to atheism than they do to Christianity, because the practical lifestyle difference between atheism and a completely unknowable God with completely unknowable motives is negligible. Islam mainly stands on its strength as a social and political system, not as a religion. (Though the fatalism inculcated by the religion does very much affect the social and political system.)

[bartdanr]

Or perhaps the Divine was often invoked by ancient Jews in both the ways you're talking about and ways that we Westerners would invoke the 'laws of nature.' This does not mean that God=Nature in all instances, nor does it deny the possibility for the presently unexplained.

The main difference between Judaism and Islam on the subject is the wide, wide, wide, WIDE over-use of In'shallah for EVERYTHING among the more serious varieties of Muslims. Allah is not merely capricious in Islam, you can do nothing apart from him. Right or wrong, whatever happens, happens In'shallah.

Muslims tend to find it much easier to convert to atheism than they do to Christianity, because the practical lifestyle difference between atheism and a completely unknowable God with completely unknowable motives is negligible. Islam mainly stands on its strength as a social and political system, not as a religion. (Though the fatalism inculcated by the religion does very much affect the social and political system.)

Epoetker, I'm not sure if I can agree with you on your assertions. I don't think that one who believes in God's sovereignty can ever claim that anything ultimately happens outside of God's will...either He is God of all, or not God at all. Even the Bible asserts that "ALL things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose" (Rom 8:28). I don't think it makes sense to ever say that saying "if it be God's will" is "overused." And if, as the Bible claims "And he is before all things, and in him all things consist" (Col 1:18), not only is the initial act of creating due to the work of the Triune God, but also each moment that it exists is attributable to His power. Even the devil continues to exist soely because God wills it; he would cease to be in a moment if God so chose. Nothing takes God by surprise. Nothing "just happens"; it is quite literally done by the will of God. It takes no more effort for God to intervene in a "miraculous" way then to "let" things happen "naturally". And yes, "right or wrong, whatever happens, happens according to His will" (see that quote from Isa 45:7; remember, God was speaking to a Persian Dualist who believe that there are two cosmic principals that account for all good and evil, not in one all-powerful God.)

Second, I disagree that in Islam God is ultimately unknowable. Many Islamic writings (primary religious texts as well as commentary) talk about very specific traits of God. All but one Surahs in the Quran speak of "God, the merciful, the gracious"--two very specific traits. God is called "closer to you than your jugular vein". The entire Sufi tradition is built upon the esoteric "knowing" of God.

Third, your assertion that it's easier for a Muslim to convert to atheism than to Christianity because ther is little lifestyle difference between atheism and Islam is more than a bit bizarre. Praying five times a day is like atheism? Giving in charity because God commands it is like atheism? Memorizing a religious text because one believes it is the verbatium word of God is like atheism? Believing that there is a Day of judgement and resurrection with an eternal destity, and living life to avoid Hell and gain heaven is like atheism? One might as well claim that Christianity is more like atheism because we believe that we go to heaven by grace alone and jot by our works. Both claims don't make any sense.

Fourth, you claim that Islam mainly stands on it's strength as a social and political system, and not a religion. Really? When most of the Islam world was under western colonial domination, why did it not die out? How did it spread to those areas that were never conquered by any Islamic armies? Why do so many convert today, outside of the areas of it's influence and domination?

I am certainly not trying to claim that Islam is the same as Christianity or Judaism...that would be a gross exaggeration. However, I do not agree with your particular characterizations of Islam.

[Dan Zebiri]

Well, bart, let muslim scholars themselves answer that for you, rather than indulge in speculation..., we have the 'famous imam' al-ghazali, and his reputable commentator, Fadlou shehadi and also al faruqi who have written about the 'unknowability of Allah'..:

The contemporary scholar of Islam, Isma`il al-Faruqi restates mainstream Islamic thinking that Allah is absolutely transcendant and thus it is impossible for humans to know God, when he writes:


‘He - God does not reveal Himself to anyone in any way. God reveals only His will. Remember one of the prophets asked God to reveal Himself and God told him, "No, it is not possible for Me to reveal Myself to anyone. "...This is God's will and that is all we have, and we have it in perfection in the Qur'an. But Islam does not equate the Qur'an with the nature or essence of God. It is the Word of God, the Commandment of God, the Will of God."


"But God does not reveal Himself to anyone. Christians talk about the revelation of God Himself - by God of God - but that is the great difference between Christianity and Islam. God is transcendent, and once you talk about self-revelation you have hierophancy and immanence, and then the transcendence of God is compromised. You may not have complete transcendence and self-revelation at the same time.’
al-Faruqi, Christian Mission and Islamic Da`wah: Proceedings of the Chambèsy Dialogue Consultation [held 1976 in Chambèsy, Switzerland]


Al-Ghazali, one of the most prominent theologians in the history of orthodox Islam, went so far as to say that it is “absolutely impossible for them ie. human beings to know Him", due to Allah’s transcendence.


Fadlou Shehadi, a contemporary scholar of Al-Ghazali, - after analyzing his arguments about the transcendence of God (Allah), concludes,


“From all the foregoing arguments, one important consequence has to be drawn. ‘God is Utterly Unknowable - Due to His absolute transcendence.’


“If God is a unique kind of being unlike any other being in any respect, …it would have to follow by Ghazali's own principles that God is utterly unknowable."

Fadlou Shehadi, Ghazali's Unique Unknowable God, Leiden, E.J. Brill, 1964, pp.21-22.

Contra Jesus Christ, in His divine teaching about knowing the Almighty:

"And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, AND (kai) Jesus Christ whom you have sent." John 17 v 3

The Lord Jesus, by using the Greek conjunction kai in his prayer, makes himself the necessary object of the knowledge that leads to eternal life. In other words, Jesus basically made himself a coequal partner with God by claiming that eternal life is dependent on knowing both the Father and the Son.

So, we can indeed know God, according to Jesus Christ, as opposed to the teachings of islam and the quran.

Think carefully on that bart!

[bartdanr]

Dan, I think we're confusing the various ways of "knowing" God. One can "know" someone, meaning they have a relationship with that person. One can know ABOUT a person, knowing facts about someone. One may "know" a person (or even a thing) experientially, which is also different. As this particular thread asks the question "Is Allah capricious" then some of these ways of "knowing" God are not exactly Germaine to the discussion.

I agree that the Islamic view of God is utterly transcendent, and any notion of having a "personal relationship" with Him in the same way that Christians speak is not mainstream Islamic thought. However, as the quotes you provide clearly indicate, God's will can be known. The belief is that His will is revealed, and God will act according to that will. However, you are correct--His essence cannot be fully known in Islamic thought. Christian theology asserts, on the other hand, that one can have a relationship with God as a Father and He can be known a the man-God, Jesus Christ. But as God reveals different characteristics, one can speak of God in Islamic thought as merciful, just, true, good, etc (a list of the "99 names of Allah" shows that certain characteristics about God vis-a-vis His dealings with man can be known.)

[Dan Zebiri]

Just a quick response to you, I quote what you wrote:

"The belief is that His will is revealed, and God (ie.islam's Allah) will act according to that will..."

This would be UNtrue, bart. Allah of islam is NOT obligated to act according to 'that will' he can change it any way he likes, capriciously. His will is only for his 'subjects' that is, his creation and those he created.

THEY must obey and act according to such of his will.

It is PURELY a master-slave 'relationship' (which is no meaningful relationship at all). The subjects nust only hear and obey, there is no hope to 'know this master/overlord' in any way! They cannot and MUST never question wny this overlord commands in this way, they must only obet - blindly and slavishly. THATS the contract and the REAL deal.

Allah is not obliged IN ANY WAY to act in line with his will - for He is above even that. And humans cannot & should not try to comprehend how or why he does.

Contra with what the Lord Jesus Christ taught in Mattew 6, that followers of Christ Jesus must call God 'their Heavenly Father', Hence,This Heavenly Father has a personal relationship with those who belong to him.

Exactly as what the apostle John recorded the Lord Jesus taught :

"And this is eternal life, that they know You the only true God, AND (kai) Jesus Christ whom you have sent." John 17 v 3

This is a real personal relationship, in which the object and subject on both sides of the relationship, can know one another. It is far and away much a more excellent relationship than the mere 'master-slave' kind in islam!

[bartdanr]

Just a quick response to you, I quote what you wrote:

"The belief is that His will is revealed, and God (ie.islam's Allah) will act according to that will..."

This would be UNtrue, bart. Allah of islam is NOT obligated to act according to 'that will' he can change it any way he likes, capriciously. His will is only for his 'subjects' that is, his creation and those he created.

THEY must obey and act according to such of his will.

It is PURELY a master-slave 'relationship' (which is no meaningful relationship at all). The subjects nust only hear and obey, there is no hope to 'know this master/overlord' in any way! They cannot and MUST never question wny this overlord commands in this way, they must only obet - blindly and slavishly. THATS the contract and the REAL deal.

Allah is not obliged IN ANY WAY to act in line with his will - for He is above even that. And humans cannot & should not try to comprehend how or why he does.

That last sentence is bizarre...how can any one NOT act in line with their will?

Can you please provide quotes that back up these assertions? The quotes that you provided last time were helpful, but here I only see assertions.

Contra with what the Lord Jesus Christ taught in Mattew 6, that followers of Christ Jesus must call God 'their Heavenly Father', Hence,This Heavenly Father has a personal relationship with those who belong to him.

Exactly as what the apostle John recorded the Lord Jesus taught :

"And this is eternal life, that they know You the only true God, AND (kai) Jesus Christ whom you have sent." John 17 v 3

This is a real personal relationship, in which the object and subject on both sides of the relationship, can know one another. It is far and away much a more excellent relationship than the mere 'master-slave' kind in islam!

No matter if we think a particular type of relationship is "more excellent" is irrelevant...we would be in danger of choosing a religious believe based upon personal preference instead of conviction of truth. We might say "I prefer to believe that God is a loving Father", but our preference won't change the reality. It's an emotional argument to say "since I'd rather be God's son than God's slave, I will choose to believe that I'm His son."

That said, I believe it...but not because I think it's a "more excellent" relationship.

[Epoetker]

Epoetker, I'm not sure if I can agree with you on your assertions. I don't think that one who believes in God's sovereignty can ever claim that anything ultimately happens outside of God's will...either He is God of all, or not God at all.

The only person whom the Jews paint as having any less free will is the king, whose 'heart is in the hand of the Lord, directed like a watercourse wherever he pleases.' Though this could merely be a proxy for how most people in power think and behave-not even the greatest prophet would ever dare predict what a politician would say on an issue in a week.

Even the Bible asserts that "ALL things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose" (Rom 8:28).

Things, not people. Most assuredly not people, though God is obviously second to none at using the effects of their good and evil decisions for the good of His people.

I don't think it makes sense to ever say that saying "if it be God's will" is "overused."

You have never been to Iraq, or had to work with Iraqis. Tends to discipline your philosophy of motivation really quick. You WILL become a mini-Nietzchean will-to-power believer in short order.

And if, as the Bible claims "And he is before all things, and in him all things consist" (Col 1:18), not only is the initial act of creating due to the work of the Triune God, but also each moment that it exists is attributable to His power.

No disagreements here. The holographic nature of the universe and our continued inability to find Der Essential Particle speak very clearly to this.

Even the devil continues to exist soely because God wills it; he would cease to be in a moment if God so chose. Nothing takes God by surprise. Nothing "just happens"; it is quite literally done by the will of God.

Does not follow. Being able to predict all outcomes does not preclude being able to alter one's own plans or grant limited freedoms to one's charges.

It takes no more effort for God to intervene in a "miraculous" way then to "let" things happen "naturally". And yes, "right or wrong, whatever happens, happens according to His will" (see that quote from Isa 45:7; remember, God was speaking to a Persian Dualist who believe that there are two cosmic principals that account for all good and evil, not in one all-powerful God.)

Second, I disagree that in Islam God is ultimately unknowable. Many Islamic writings (primary religious texts as well as commentary) talk about very specific traits of God. All but one Surahs in the Quran speak of "God, the merciful, the gracious"--two very specific traits. God is called "closer to you than your jugular vein". The entire Sufi tradition is built upon the esoteric "knowing" of God.

The fact that Islam has produced a splinter sect of mystics that desperately attempt to remedy Islam's extreme errors in regards to the nature and knowability of God is no particular surprise to me. Truth will be sought out by those who love it.

Third, your assertion that it's easier for a Muslim to convert to atheism than to Christianity because ther is little lifestyle difference between atheism and Islam is more than a bit bizarre. Praying five times a day is like atheism?

We salute the flag at pre-appointed times twice a day on my military post.

Giving in charity because God commands it is like atheism?

We all pay taxes to support the poor greatly in excess of Zakat's 2.5%.

Memorizing a religious text because one believes it is the verbatium word of God is like atheism?

You've never met anyone who believes in a secular creed? You've never met people who quote the Constitution (or far worse, UN declarations) as the final authority on matters?

Believing that there is a Day of judgement and resurrection with an eternal destity, and living life to avoid Hell and gain heaven is like atheism?

Dude, atheists attend the church of Gaia religiously.

One might as well claim that Christianity is more like atheism because we believe that we go to heaven by grace alone and jot by our works. Both claims don't make any sense.

Christianity's claim is a higher-level calculation of what saves us that takes into account the limitations of the Law and its lack of ability to truly make a new person. It makes assertions-like how our fundamental nature is sinful, that it requires an actual communion with a real Deity to counteract, and that while righteousness is good, it is fundamentally not enough, especially when following the wrong path.

Fourth, you claim that Islam mainly stands on it's strength as a social and political system, and not a religion. Really? When most of the Islam world was under western colonial domination, why did it not die out?

Because the Western mercantile powers very unwisely chose not to bother the religion so long as they got their money.

How did it spread to those areas that were never conquered by any Islamic armies?

By sending missionaries, same as everyone else. And imposing much higher costs on those who leave their community.

Why do so many convert today, outside of the areas of it's influence and domination?

Fear and lethargy. Islam is an enervating religion that thrives off of poverty.

I am certainly not trying to claim that Islam is the same as Christianity or Judaism...that would be a gross exaggeration. However, I do not agree with your particular characterizations of Islam.

Because you've never been in contact with representative samples of the majority of Muslims.

[Dan Zebiri]

Sure, the quran cannot comprehend the concept of God having son. hence :

He begets not, nor is he begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.
Sura 112:3-4

It also clearly claims that 'there is NONE like unto him' meaning of course, he (allah) is therefore ALSO UNLIKE anyone / anybody in this world.

When you asked 'how can any one NOT act in line with their will?' you assume that God/allah has to act like 'any one' - as you put it! You fail to understand the quranic import of this verse above, and you're thinking just like a typical non-muslim (which of course you are..!)

in islam allah is totally unlike anyone, period. Hence no one can assume that he acts in any similar way/s like (or to) us. This includes to act in line to what we have willed!

And on another note, I do find a 'Father-CHild' relationship' much more excellent in contrast with the 'master-slave' one in islam.

That, coupled up with the fact that Christ Jesus Himself taught the 'Father-child' relationship and that we can all begin to know God personally through Christ, provides greater impetus for me to pursue this kind of superior relationship.

Dan.

[bartdanr]

The only person whom the Jews paint as having any less free will is the king, whose 'heart is in the hand of the Lord, directed like a watercourse wherever he pleases.' Though this could merely be a proxy for how most people in power think and behave-not even the greatest prophet would ever dare predict what a politician would say on an issue in a week.

"Free will" vs. Determinism is an old, old argument--and you will find Christians who vehemently argue one or the other. We aren't going to solve the argument here. Nevertheless, will you claim that Calvinists are mistaken? Because much of your arguments against the determinism in Islam could be used against traditional Calvinism and Biblically-based predestination.

Things, not people. Most assuredly not people, though God is obviously second to none at using the effects of their good and evil decisions for the good of His people.

I think the language you use here suggests that God sets up a plan, and then sees how people try to screw it up, and then says something like "Uh-oh, someone's messing with my plan...I better intervene in some way to make happen what I want." It suggest that God reacts as well as acts.

But keep in mind that, if God knows everything before it happens, He's already included it all in His creation. And He has not only set up initial conditions, but also the predispossitions of how we react to whatever events take place. You can argue all day about someone "freely" choosing to do one thing or another; however, the fact remains that it was God that created everything as it is. He created each one of us with our likes and dislikes--we made no choices about what we prefer or not. I never "chose" to like chocolate or not...I never "chose" to be heterosexual...I never "chose" to dislike Moon Pies. One might argue that I am free to do whatever I want, but I never have been free to want whatever I want.

Maybe you can argue that God allows a measure of randomness in His universe--"playing dice" with the universe. Even if this is allowed, randomness is not freedom, not in the sense of "freely" choosing something. (But I think that true randomness is impossible.)

You have never been to Iraq, or had to work with Iraqis. Tends to discipline your philosophy of motivation really quick. You WILL become a mini-Nietzchean will-to-power believer in short order.

First, you're assuming you know where I have or haven't been, and who I have or have not worked with. Second, you assume I would react the same way as you did in your situation--ironic, given that you're assuming free will, that we're not automatons of our environment and genetics.

No disagreements here. The holographic nature of the universe and our continued inability to find Der Essential Particle speak very clearly to this.

Glad to know we can agree on something. ;) However, I would be leering of any "God of the gaps" arguments...just because something hasn't been discovered yet, it does not follow that it never will...nor should "God" be just shorthand for "the explanation for that we don't understand yet." As discovery progresses, this kind of "God" is continually shrinking.

Does not follow. Being able to predict all outcomes does not preclude being able to alter one's own plans or grant limited freedoms to one's charges.

Actually, God's foreknowledge is not simply knowing all possible outcomes, but actually knowing what really will occur. And if that knowledge is complete, that includes knowledge of one's own future actions. If God was "free" to change His mind, He would be free to falsify His own future knowledge. Do you really want to go there? God cannot even be said to have "chosen" something...unless His foreknowledge was imperfect, He foreknew all of His actions from eternity past, and He could not but do what He foreknew He would do.

The fact that Islam has produced a splinter sect of mystics that desperately attempt to remedy Islam's extreme errors in regards to the nature and knowability of God is no particular surprise to me. Truth will be sought out by those who love it.

Sufism is found in all major sects of Islam; it is not a "sect" in and of itself. But if you'll look back at my post to Dan, you'll see that there are different kinds of "knowledge". Intellectual "knowledge" is but one kind.

By the way, what is an "exteme error"--what makes an error "extreme", as opposed to just an error?

We salute the flag at pre-appointed times twice a day on my military post.

But in Islamic prayer, a key requirement is intention ("Niyah", I believe)--a hollow ritual will not cut it. If one disbelieved in God, it renders the prayer null and void.

We all pay taxes to support the poor greatly in excess of Zakat's 2.5%.

I would question that a full 2.5% of our increase (not income, a difference) is taxed in a way that directly supports the poor...unless you want to stretch Social Security and Medicare into "programs for the poor".

You've never met anyone who believes in a secular creed? You've never met people who quote the Constitution (or far worse, UN declarations) as the final authority on matters?

Of course we have. But the very foundation of Islam is the belief in One God--if one cuts that out of Islam, the rest completely falls apart. No God, no prophethood, no revelation, no afterlife, no angels--it all becomes meaningless. The pillars of belief are completely based upon the presupposition of God's existence. Islam cannot exist as a "secular creed".

Dude, atheists attend the church of Gaia religiously.

And this has to do with Islam in what way?

Christianity's claim is a higher-level calculation of what saves us that takes into account the limitations of the Law and its lack of ability to truly make a new person. It makes assertions-like how our fundamental nature is sinful, that it requires an actual communion with a real Deity to counteract, and that while righteousness is good, it is fundamentally not enough, especially when following the wrong path.

I will not argue that Christianity is different from Islam; that should be clear to most people who have examined it. But it does not follow that because of this, Islam is less rational. Christianity is based on certain presuppositions; so is Islam. Most of these presuppositions are completely untestable and unfalsifiable...that's why they are supported by faith, and not on experimentation or unambiguous historical record.

Because the Western mercantile powers very unwisely chose not to bother the religion so long as they got their money.

So you believe that, contrary to this unwise choice, Islam should have been "bothered"? If so, in what way? And how would this square with the western tradition of religious liberty?

By sending missionaries, same as everyone else. And imposing much higher costs on those who leave their community.

Agreed...so, like other proselytizing faiths, people accepted it for a variety of reasons. Some might accept it for social/political reasons...but when it was a minority faith, those reasons are somewhat diminished. I think it's a false claim to assume that few converts converted because they were convinced of the truth of the assertions, and most were for political and social reasons.

Fear and lethargy. Islam is an enervating religion that thrives off of poverty.

I see. And you'll sweep 1,400 years of history under the rug? Including those centuries when the Islamic civilization was the wealthiest, most advanced civilization in the world, and European "Christian" nations were bickering, ignorant tiny nations mired in a dark age?

And do you really feel that today's converts convert because they're poor and helpless?

Because you've never been in contact with representative samples of the majority of Muslims.

Exactly how was your Iraqi experience a contact with "representative samples of the majority of Muslims"? Iraq is not some kind of melting pot of a variety of Islamic peoples. Not many Pakistanis there, or Indonesians, or Malaysians, or Chinese Muslims, or Bosnians, or American Muslims. It's a nation that was for years under the yoke of a secular dictator who committed acts of genocide, suffered greatly under economic sanctions, has had it's infrastructure nearly annihilated by our invasion, and experienced effectively civil war. Currently, it still has foreign troops on it's soil. Do you think you're going to see Muslims at their best by looking at Iraqis in 2011?

At any rate, it is fallicious to suggest that your experience somehow gives you the inside track of all things Islamic.