Permitted lying

[Tanakh Keeper]

From “Love Your Neighbor” by Rabbi Zelig Pliskin

1) It is permitted to tell an untruth to make peace between two people who are having a dispute, or to save someone from harm. Your words should be as close to the truth as possible.

2) If your host was very hospitable, you should not tell an unscrupulous person about the hospitality extended, since they might take advantage of the host.

3) When someone asks you for information that if you answered truthfully would constitute rechilus, (talebearing -- needlessly telling someone what another person said or did something against him) -- you should tell them a lie rather than relate that information.

4) You are permitted to tell an untruth out of humility to not draw attention to yourself.

5) You are permitted to deceive someone who is trying to deceive you in order to save yourself from being cheated.

6) You are allowed to praise something that someone has acquired, though it may not deserve that praise.

7) You may lie to save someone's life.

8) A teacher may say an incorrect statement to see if his students are paying attention or remember their learning.

9) It is not lying to make a statement that everyone knows is an exaggeration, e.g. "I told you a thousand times."

[Sparko]

I agree with some of them but disagree with others.

Like #3- lying instead of gossiping. Wouldn't it be better to not lie, and instead refuse to answer them because you don't want to gossip?

in fact in several of them, it would seem to me that refusing to answer is better than lying about it.

[Cow Poke]

From “Love Your Neighbor” by Rabbi Zelig Pliskin

1) It is permitted to tell an untruth to make peace between two people who are having a dispute, or to save someone from harm. Your words should be as close to the truth as possible.

2) If your host was very hospitable, you should not tell an unscrupulous person about the hospitality extended, since they might take advantage of the host.

3) When someone asks you for information that if you answered truthfully would constitute rechilus, (talebearing -- needlessly telling someone what another person said or did something against him) -- you should tell them a lie rather than relate that information.

4) You are permitted to tell an untruth out of humility to not draw attention to yourself.

5) You are permitted to deceive someone who is trying to deceive you in order to save yourself from being cheated.

6) You are allowed to praise something that someone has acquired, though it may not deserve that praise.

7) You may lie to save someone's life.

8) A teacher may say an incorrect statement to see if his students are paying attention or remember their learning.

9) It is not lying to make a statement that everyone knows is an exaggeration, e.g. "I told you a thousand times."

Interesting thread, TK....

I've just not found it necessary to lie very often. And, while we can find justifications for it, many times silence works a lot better.

[Cow Poke]

We could take a lesson from Honest Abe...

[Salty]

I agree with some of them but disagree with others.

Like #3- lying instead of gossiping. Wouldn't it be better to not lie, and instead refuse to answer them because you don't want to gossip?

in fact in several of them, it would seem to me that refusing to answer is better than lying about it.

#3 is the only one I see where refusing to answer would be better than lying. Well, on third look, maybe # 4 and 6, too.

I think it wise to remember that having permission to do something is not the same as being advised to do that thing. The last sentence in #1 would surely apply to all of them: "Your words should be as close to the truth as possible." So, if you can't find a way to speak only truth and still get the desired result, then you are permitted to lie.

[mitzi]

I agree with some of them but disagree with others.

Like #3- lying instead of gossiping. Wouldn't it be better to not lie, and instead refuse to answer them because you don't want to gossip?

in fact in several of them, it would seem to me that refusing to answer is better than lying about it.

How could you avoid the silence of not answering - there were some very famous lies in the bible, in order to save the lives of others and also there were lies told in order to not reveal a truth:

Pointing toward the two Hebrew midwives, Shifrah and Puah, who risked their lives by lying to the Pharaoh in order to save the newborn Israelite babies in Egypt (Exodus 1: 19-21)

Clearly, lying to the murderer looking for his victim or to the Gestapo seeking Jews in hiding would easily pass the "test of publicity" and would be permissible. (Could one be silent underneath these circumstances?)

What about in Matthew 2 -when King Herod heard about the birth of the Messiah? - the location of where to find the child and parents were not given out, when asked.

another source:
Should Moral Individuals Ever Lie? Insights from Jewish Law
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/hf_LyingPermissible.html

[mitzi]

From “Love Your Neighbor” by Rabbi Zelig Pliskin

1) It is permitted to tell an untruth to make peace between two people who are having a dispute, or to save someone from harm. Your words should be as close to the truth as possible.

2) If your host was very hospitable, you should not tell an unscrupulous person about the hospitality extended, since they might take advantage of the host.

3) When someone asks you for information that if you answered truthfully would constitute rechilus, (talebearing -- needlessly telling someone what another person said or did something against him) -- you should tell them a lie rather than relate that information.

4) You are permitted to tell an untruth out of humility to not draw attention to yourself.

5) You are permitted to deceive someone who is trying to deceive you in order to save yourself from being cheated.

6) You are allowed to praise something that someone has acquired, though it may not deserve that praise.

7) You may lie to save someone's life.

8) A teacher may say an incorrect statement to see if his students are paying attention or remember their learning.

9) It is not lying to make a statement that everyone knows is an exaggeration, e.g. "I told you a thousand times."

Good Topic, a lie though has a reverse affect, as to destroy. A lie can take root, and from that point of - it can then begin to develop branches:

"The Torah says: "Keep a distance from falsehood" {Shemot 23:7]. That does not mean "don't lie" it means don't do things that will bring you to deception. A good rule to follow is: "If you might have to deny it -- don't do it!" A good lie may work for a moment but it will lead to another false statement and then another until the truth is eventually revealed. Consider the long-term result of your behavior and you will be spared the shame of getting caught. "Who is wise? The one who foresees the future". http://www.torah.org/learning/reflec...lection-2.html


Another thought: One of the most fundamental commandments related to the subject of Lashon Hara is Leviticus 19:15 - "B'tzedek tishpot amitecha," in righteousness shall you judge your kinsman.

[Cow Poke]

How could you avoid the silence of not answering - there were some very famous lies in the bible, in order to save the lives of others and also there were lies told in order to not reveal a truth:

Pointing toward the two Hebrew midwives, Shifrah and Puah, who risked their lives by lying to the Pharaoh in order to save the newborn Israelite babies in Egypt (Exodus 1: 19-21)

Clearly, lying to the murderer looking for his victim or to the Gestapo seeking Jews in hiding would easily pass the "test of publicity" and would be permissible. (Could one be silent underneath these circumstances?)

What about in Matthew 2 -when King Herod heard about the birth of the Messiah? - the location of where to find the child and parents were not given out, when asked.

another source:
Should Moral Individuals Ever Lie? Insights from Jewish Law
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/hf_LyingPermissible.html

Most of us, in daily life, really have no reason to lie. We can always go to the extremes -- somebody breaks into our house and demands to know where our children are hiding .... that doesn't require a lie so much as it requires dealing with the aggressor....

OR...

<Sarcasm>

you could take a lesson from the Mormons "Lying for the Lord" and simply answer the question they SHOULD have asked

This is a fair warning to those sarcastically impaired the preceding text was written in jest.

[Sparko]

How could you avoid the silence of not answering - there were some very famous lies in the bible, in order to save the lives of others and also there were lies told in order to not reveal a truth:

Pointing toward the two Hebrew midwives, Shifrah and Puah, who risked their lives by lying to the Pharaoh in order to save the newborn Israelite babies in Egypt (Exodus 1: 19-21)

Clearly, lying to the murderer looking for his victim or to the Gestapo seeking Jews in hiding would easily pass the "test of publicity" and would be permissible. (Could one be silent underneath these circumstances?)

What about in Matthew 2 -when King Herod heard about the birth of the Messiah? - the location of where to find the child and parents were not given out, when asked.

another source:
Should Moral Individuals Ever Lie? Insights from Jewish Law
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/hf_LyingPermissible.html

as I said, several of the points could be better handled by silence. I didn't say all situations could be. The example I gave was for gossip.


3) When someone asks you for information that if you answered truthfully would constitute rechilus, (talebearing -- needlessly telling someone what another person said or did something against him) -- you should tell them a lie rather than relate that information.

sheesh.

[mitzi]

as I said, several of the points could be better handled by silence. I didn't say all situations could be. The example I gave was for gossip.


3) When someone asks you for information that if you answered truthfully would constitute rechilus, (talebearing -- needlessly telling someone what another person said or did something against him) -- you should tell them a lie rather than relate that information.

sheesh.

Love the avatar - did you go out shopping? Now, was I lying about loving the avatar or just being kind to you?

[mitzi]

Most of us, in daily life, really have no reason to lie. We can always go to the extremes -- somebody breaks into our house and demands to know where our children are hiding .... that doesn't require a lie so much as it requires dealing with the aggressor....

OR...

<Sarcasm>

you could take a lesson from the Mormons "Lying for the Lord" and simply answer the question they SHOULD have asked

This is a fair warning to those sarcastically impaired the preceding text was written in jest.

Cow Poke, this is really interesting because someone made the same (not exact) comment. I'm just beginning to understand the Muslim religion, as I'm skimming over it. So I'll post the remark - from another member. In Jewish law as within the Muslim law - I found alot of similarities:

As for taqiya, in the "Part IV" of my last overlarge entry, I actually cited Ghazali from a text of Islamic law on the requirement to lie. So, you are correct!

You have really misread what Ghazali said, just re-read it a few times. There is the famous Prophetic narration that a Muslim musn't lie even in jest. Firstly Ghazali is saying tell the truth, in matters of mere permissiblity (i.e. not obligatory, forbidden, recommended or hated) one can mislead through telling the truth, and in dire situations one can say a lie. Giving an example: if a mad axe murderer asks me where my children are I might say 'try the garage' knowing full well they are not there, but by saying 'try' I am not actually lying. This is preferable. However since this particular situation is a matter of life and death (one of the key principles behind Shariah Law is preservation of life) then I could lie and say something like: 'they are in the garage.' This is completely reasonable and not really anything like what you read into it.

[mitzi]

.......and by the way, Sparko - thanks for replying back and its good to hear from you.

M

[Cow Poke]

Cow Poke, this is really interesting because someone made the same (not exact) comment. I'm just beginning to understand the Muslim religion, as I'm skimming over it. So I'll post the remark - from another member. In Jewish law as within the Muslim law - I found alot of similarities:

I just think there are very FEW times when it would be "necessary" to lie, and I personally can't think of a time in the past 20 or 30 years where I would say it was necessary.

Even as a police officer, in conducting "sting" operations, I didn't have to lie. I played on people's GREED, however, and was amazed at how stupid people can be when they think they're going to get something for FREE!

[mitzi]

I just think there are very FEW times when it would be "necessary" to lie, and I personally can't think of a time in the past 20 or 30 years where I would say it was necessary.

Even as a police officer, in conducting "sting" operations, I didn't have to lie. I played on people's GREED, however, and was amazed at how stupid people can be when they think they're going to get something for FREE!

how that brings back memories, and working for a security company - we had many supervisors who were retired from the military. Unfortunately for me one day, I had stepped behind my supervisor without him knowing and tapped him on shoulder from behind. Don't want to do that ever again.

Yes, there are some really strange people who think that they hide in a department store after everyone has gone home for the day and take whatever they want, after hours. I don't think that many people have ever heard of motion detectors before. However, I had a good laugh, when "this person" stepped out of the store the next morning, to see how many officers were waiting for him - he kind of tripped the silent alarms. There are many stories that I remember - even governmental stories of someone calling the security alarm company and posing as a FBI agent, to find out about the alarm system at a house or houses.