Muhammed: A mercy to the World.

[Bill the Cat]

I never said I was a Jewish scholar, so yes there is somethings about Jewish law I don't know.

Then you are incapable of arguing against the points I am making.

Nor did I say that's the reason why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus.

These were the keepers of the Torah. They would not have stoned Jesus just because they didn'y like Him,. They had ample opportunity to do so. Yet, they looked for an excuse, and Jesus gave them one in claiming to be the Messiah.

They were quite clear in the reason they wanted to stone him.

Blasphemy. Claiming equality with God, and hence claiming to BE God, since they were all monotheists.

What I'm saying is the verses we are discussing don't show Jesus claiming divinity, rather they show Jesus being misunderstood in what he was saying.

No they don't. They understood perfectly what Jesus was claiming, and thus, they had Torah backing to stone Him.

He (Jesus) said, " Before Abraham was I am." What does that mean?

It means that Jesus was claiming to have pre-existed. And since the Jews believed that only God pre-exists, Jesus was claiming to be God.

If he were saying he was God, wouldn't the verse be more fully understood in this way, " Before Abraham there was I."

No. It means exactly what Jesus said. Before Abraham existed, Jesus is.

, or, " Before Abraham was God, and I am God...".

Unnecessary. Claiming to pre-exist His birth was a direct claim to the Pharisees to be God, because no human pre-existed their own conception.

It isn't even a proper sentence!

It most certainly is. It is consistent with Jewish use of the present tense to describe God's existence.

Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

Anyway, your entire arguement isn't built around around what Jesus actually said, but the reaction of the Jews that heard him, who were already against him, and seeking a reason to stone him anyway.

And would not have tried had they not had a reason under Torah to do so. Jesus made very specific claims, including being the Messiah.

You forgot to mention Jesus's reply to them after they accused him of making himself divine. If Jesus was claiming divinity, why did he seek to correct them? Did he change his mind after it was said, and they wanted to stone him?

The answer of Jesus consists of two parts. The first shows that they ought not to object to his use of the word God, even if he were no more than a man. The second repeats His claim to have been sent by the Father from heaven, again claiming a pre-existence.

[ahmadj3]

This is wierd, I've been attempting to reply for the longest to everyone's posts, however it always comes up as saying that I'm short 1 character. What the heck?! That's like going to the store, being short one penny on your purchase of $100, and not being able to get you purchase. Why do I feel that the moderator is somehow blocking my replies to posts. I've made very short replies in the past, and this doesn't happen, why now? Anyway, In response first to Mr. Bowman, How does that prove Jesus is God. Even if we were to assume that Jesus is the one referred to in the first part of the verse, it still says that God will be his God, and that Jesus will be the son. So I have a question for that. Is Jesus God, or is he the son? To Bill, I have a question, there are lots of people who are ignorant of Jewish law who are Christian. How would they be able to know for a fact Jesus is God, and where he says, specifically that. After all God is not one to hide himself to those who seek Him. Let's say you are sharing the message of Jesus with me, rather than debating me, and asked where does Jesus specifically say he is God? What would your answer be? Salvation is a very serious thing, I'm sure you'll agree, yet it should be so simple that even a person who isn't the most well learned should be able to understand it. Which is easier to you to understand, God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are three in one, seperate yet all equally God, or There is only One God, and Only Him should you worship?

[Bill the Cat]

This is wierd, I've been attempting to reply for the longest to everyone's posts, however it always comes up as saying that I'm short 1 character. What the heck?! That's like going to the store, being short one penny on your purchase of $100, and not being able to get you purchase. Why do I feel that the moderator is somehow blocking my replies to posts. I've made very short replies in the past, and this doesn't happen, why now? Anyway, In response first to Mr. Bowman, How does that prove Jesus is God. Even if we were to assume that Jesus is the one referred to in the first part of the verse, it still says that God will be his God, and that Jesus will be the son. So I have a question for that. Is Jesus God, or is he the son? To Bill, I have a question, there are lots of people who are ignorant of Jewish law who are Christian. How would they be able to know for a fact Jesus is God, and where he says, specifically that. After all God is not one to hide himself to those who seek Him. Let's say you are sharing the message of Jesus with me, rather than debating me, and asked where does Jesus specifically say he is God? What would your answer be? Salvation is a very serious thing, I'm sure you'll agree, yet it should be so simple that even a person who isn't the most well learned should be able to understand it. Which is easier to you to understand, God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are three in one, seperate yet all equally God, or There is only One God, and Only Him should you worship?

It probably has something to do with the quote feature. I'll help you out. Look at my post to you. See how I've broben up your post into different quotes? This is done with the VB tag [quote ][/quote ] without the space between the end of the word and the close bracket

For instance,
[quote=Bill the Cat ]My words[/quote ]
your words
[quote ]more of my words[/quote ]
your words again
[quote ]More of my words[/quote ]
your words


becomes

My words

your words

more of my words

your words again

More of my words

your words

OK?

[Bowman]

In response first to Mr. Bowman, How does that prove Jesus is God.

Jesus is speaking in the first-person singular regarding Himself as being Theos....just like you asked for, brother.

Are you now wanting to move the goal posts?

Even if we were to assume that Jesus is the one referred to in the first part of the verse,

Context establishes that Jesus is the one speaking.

it still says that God will be his God, and that Jesus will be the son.

Not in the verse that was quoted to you.

So I have a question for that. Is Jesus God, or is he the son?

Jesus is both the Son and God, brother.

Now you can begin to understand the Biblical concept of the Trinity.

The Father is God.

The Son is God.

The Spirit is God.

All simultaneously the one God.