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Thread: The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity

  1. #881
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    There are Roman ruins there, check out tours of Tyre.
    Checked it out; discovered that the Roman ruins referred to there are mostly on the mainland, not the island (but see below)[quote]But following up references led to this site, which has photos of the various ruins on Tyre as well as a map showing their locations, including the submerged southern harbour walls.

    It's clear from the map that the extent of the underwater ruins is considerably less than the extent of Tyre that remains above water; the harbour, which would be on the edge of the city, is closer to the shore than the temple of Melqart, which lies just south of the modern built-up area. The northern harbour is even further away. So the reason for Lee's reluctance to show the extent of the ancient city compared to modern satellite maps is obvious.

    Of course this isn't a surprise since Lee has already cited this: "The silted up harbour on the south side of the peninsula has been excavated by the French Institute for Archaeology in the Near East, but most of the remains of the Phoenician period still lie beneath the present town."

    That web page also proposes a date for the harbour submerging (501CE) which is 1200 years before the period of 'quarrying' Jidejian refers to, and which Lee suggested stopped when the city sank. No wonder Lee was vague about that date.

    The web page also has pictures of some ancient columns which were incorporated into a church built during the Crusader era, so not only are there some Phoenician remains, but the part of the city where those remains lay was rebuilt. Also there are some Roman baths between the temple area and the Southern harbour, next to a Roman palaestra - and beneath the palaestra lie the remains of the Phoenician city walls. So this is another part of the Phoenician city that was rebuilt, this time by the Romans.

    So Lee's claim that "the ancient city of Tyre is substantially underwater, so this ancient city has not been rebuilt" is utter bollocks. Only the outer area of the Southern harbour is underwater. The temple area is not underwater, and it was rebuilt by Crusaders. The southern city wall area is not underwater, and it was rebuilt by Romans. The northern half of the city up the harbour is not underwater, and has been rebuilt in modern times and, since there's a Byzantine arch in that area, rebuilt before then as well. The ancient city of Tyre is still substantially above water, and has been rebuilt multiple times.

    So I think I'm done here...
    You certainly are. Your repeated misrepresentation of facts and sources, coupled with the ridiculousness of your current position that Tyre has not been rebuilt because there are Roman ruins there, render anything you might say henceforth moot.
    Last edited by Roy; 02-09-2018 at 12:16 PM.
    Mountain Man:
    "...because the notion of "white privilege" is nothing more than a re-branding of failed Marxist ideologies. "

  2. #882
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    ... following up references led to this site, which has photos of the various ruins on Tyre as well as a map showing their locations, including the submerged southern harbour walls.

    It's clear from the map that the extent of the underwater ruins is considerably less than the extent of Tyre that remains above water; the harbour, which would be on the edge of the city, is closer to the shore than the temple of Melqart, which lies just south of the modern built-up area.
    Well, the temple of Melqart is yet to be identified: "We may be optimistic that the sanctuary stood somewhere close to the church and may one day be identified."

    That web page also proposes a date for the harbour submerging (501CE) which is 1200 years before the period of 'quarrying' Jidejian refers to, and which Lee suggested stopped when the city sank. No wonder Lee was vague about that date.
    Thanks for the clarification of the date of the harbor sinking! And the acknowledgement that the harbor sank.

    The web page also has pictures of some ancient columns which were incorporated into a church built during the Crusader era, so not only are there some Phoenician remains, but the part of the city where those remains lay was rebuilt. Also there are some Roman baths between the temple area and the Southern harbour, next to a Roman palaestra - and beneath the palaestra lie the remains of the Phoenician city walls. So this is another part of the Phoenician city that was rebuilt, this time by the Romans.
    Then we read "The City Baths were built on top of the ancient Phoenician wall: this is the only place where something is visible of the city captured by Alexander the Great." So the parts of the city below water are still the substantial ruins we see.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  3. #883
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    [moot stuff deleted]
    Mountain Man:
    "...because the notion of "white privilege" is nothing more than a re-branding of failed Marxist ideologies. "

  4. #884
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Thanks for the clarification of the date of the harbor sinking! And the acknowledgement that the harbor sank.
    Here's an extract from Joshua the Stylite, writing in 507 (translated by W.Wright):
    Now then listen to the calamities that happened in this year*, and to the sign that appeared on the day when they happened, for this too you have required at my hands. On the 22d of Ab (August) in this year, on the night preceding |37 Friday 23, a great fire appeared to us blazing in the northern quarter the whole night, and we thought that the whole earth was going to be destroyed that night by a deluge of fire; but the mercy of our Lord preserved us without harm. We received, however, a letter from some acquaintances of ours, who were travelling to Jerusalem, in which it was stated that, on the same night in which that great blazing fire appeared, the city of Ptolemais or 'Akko was overturned, and nothing in it left standing. Again, a few days after, there came unto us some Tyrians and Sidonians, and told us that, on the very same day on which the fire appeared and Ptolemais was overturned, the half of their cities fell, namely of Tyre and Sidon In Berytus (Beirut) only the synagogue of the Jews fell down on the day when 'Akko was overturned. The people of Nicomedia (in Bithynia) were delivered over to Satan to be chastised, and many of them were tormented by demons, until they remembered the words of our Lord, and persevered in fasting and prayer, and received healing.. In Berytus (Beirut) only the synagogue of the Jews fell down on the day when 'Akko was overturned.
    So according to this account the city of Tyre was devastated in 501, along with the cities of Sidon, Ptolemais, Beirut, Nicomedia and others.

    This has nothing to do with Nebuchadnezzar's siege, or Alexander's capture, or indeed any assault against Tyre.

    *813 in the Macedonian calendar, corresponding to 501-502AD
    Mountain Man:
    "...because the notion of "white privilege" is nothing more than a re-branding of failed Marxist ideologies. "

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