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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAnother good argument against Christianity is that if God had created the world as a crucible for human developement, then he wouldn't have created dinosaurs millions of years prior to creating humans. Of course the authors of the bible, and Adam and Eve, had no knowledge of evolution, dinosaurs, or the age of the universe, so its understandable as to why they thought it was all about them.
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I told my 4 year old nephew that nobody knew what had wiped out the dinosaurs. He thought about it for a while, and then announced that they were killed by giants with big sticks. It sounds about as plausible as a Ken Ham theory."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAnother good argument against Christianity is that if God had created the world as a crucible for human developement, then he wouldn't have created dinosaurs millions of years prior to creating humans. Of course the authors of the bible, and Adam and Eve, had no knowledge of evolution, dinosaurs, or the age of the universe, so its understandable as to why they thought it was all about them.
It does have weaknesses in the underlying premises, but those weaknesses would be difficult to demonstrate except by a saint or three.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAnother good argument against Christianity is that if God had created the world as a crucible for human developement, then he wouldn't have created dinosaurs millions of years prior to creating humans. Of course the authors of the bible, and Adam and Eve, had no knowledge of evolution, dinosaurs, or the age of the universe, so its understandable as to why they thought it was all about them.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI told my 4 year old nephew that nobody knew what had wiped out the dinosaurs. He thought about it for a while, and then announced that they were killed by giants with big sticks. It sounds about as plausible as a Ken Ham theory.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAnother good argument against Christianity is that if God had created the world as a crucible for human developement, then he wouldn't have created dinosaurs millions of years prior to creating humans. Of course the authors of the bible, and Adam and Eve, had no knowledge of evolution, dinosaurs, or the age of the universe, so its understandable as to why they thought it was all about them.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostStarlight does present a logical and coherent argument - I've never seen that kind of presentation anywhere before.
It does have weaknesses in the underlying premises, but those weaknesses would be difficult to demonstrate except by a saint or three.
(b) is just an extension of the old "hiddenness of God" argument which has been dealt with by a number of apologists. Also, it should come to no surprise that miracles, by their very nature, are rare. Even if more miracles were captured on video, people would find ways of not accepting the evidence. Craig Keener's relatively recent two volume "Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts" documents a long list of modern examples. Finally, Jesus pointed out that he couldn't do many works in his own hometown because of the lack of faith there. In the 21st century wealthy West where cynicism and severe skepticism is considered a virtue, it's hardly a wonder that miracles seem rare, and those that do happen are doubted.
The problem with religious people in (c) isn't that they're religious, but that they're people. I don't know if there's a litmus test for how "right" religious people are compared to non-religious people. I'm not even sure what that means, but I'm willing to bet that atheists are in just as much disagreement with one another as religious people are. The great thing about Christianity is that, aside from the central tenets of the faith, we are free to be in disagreement with one another. "In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity". William Lane Craig has a wonderful visual aid for this where he explains how the doctrines and tenets of the faith can be looked at as a web, with the essential tenets naturally in the center...and how those tenets become less essential as we move away from the center towards the periphery. I was raised in a cult that taught that Christianity was a hopeless mess of denominational disharmony that proved that it was false. One of the most astonishing things I discovered upon becoming a Christian was just how united in so many essential areas Christianity actually was, and reading the early Church Fathers only continued to impress that upon me. I honestly think that a lot of people who were raised Christian sometimes take how united we are in so many areas for granted. Should we strive for more ecumencism? Absolutely, but the situation is far from hopeless, and one day Christ will personally lead us back into perfect unity.
(d) is just part of the problem of evil argument. It has a number of answers shared with the usual rebuttal to the PoE. William Lane Craig and Paul Copan take that stance that natural disasters are simply the expected results of a universe operating according to natural laws, and that these laws were established with the purpose of maximizing God's purpose for human creation. Others point out that nature is reeling from the presence of sin in the world, and that Satan is still the god of this world, and looks for any way that he can to steal, kill, and destroy.
(e) is only an issue for a God with limited resources and limited time. Again, Craig puts it beautifully when he states, "This whole model of God as the engineer who has to marshal his resources and use them only in the most efficient way is...just a very defective understanding of who God is, who, I think, is probably more like the artist who enjoys creating a beautifully fine-tuned universe."
This presentation isn't very novel. Most of these issues have been discussed in apologetic circles for ages. I do think Wall underestimated Starlight though. Starlight is dishonest, vain, morally jacked, and has about as bad a memory as he does reading comprehension, but he's not an idiot. He's spent enough time in his little anti-Christian echo chambers to memorize all of the standard skeptical arguments. I also think Wall's historical argument, while having merit once someone already accepts the existence of the divine, and the miraculous, carries less weight to an out and out atheist/agnostic. Natural theology is probably the better way to go when dealing with someone who doesn't even believe in God.Last edited by Adrift; 06-26-2017, 02:05 PM.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostWilliam Lane Craig has, in my opinion, tackled (a) thoroughly and convincingly in his essay, "'No Other Name': A Middle Knowledge Perspective on the Exclusivity of Salvation Through Christ" where he basically points out that Molinism offers good reason for God ordering the world in such a way so that the most people who will come to a salvational knowledge of Jesus do so.
(b) is just an extension of the old "hiddenness of God" argument which has been dealt with by a number of apologists. Also, it should come to no surprise that miracles, by their very nature, are rare. Even if more miracles were captured on video, people would find ways of not accepting the evidence. Craig Keener's relatively recent two volume "Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts" documents a long list of modern examples. Finally, Jesus pointed out that he couldn't do many works in his own hometown because of the lack of faith there. In the 21st century wealthy West where cynicism and severe skepticism is considered a virtue, it's hardly a wonder that miracles seem rare, and those that do happen are doubted.
The problem with religious people in (c) isn't that they're religious, but that they're people. I don't know if there's a litmus test for how "right" religious people are compared to non-religious people. I'm not even sure what that means, but I'm willing to bet that atheists are in just as much disagreement with one another as religious people are.
The great thing about Christianity is that, aside from the central tenets of the faith, we are free to be in disagreement with one another. "In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity". William Lane Craig has a wonderful visual aid for this where he explains how the doctrines and tenets of the faith can be looked at as a web, with the essential tenets naturally in the center...and how those tenets become less essential as we move away from the center towards the periphery. I was raised in a cult that taught that Christianity was a hopeless mess of denominational disharmony that proved that it was false. One of the most astonishing things I discovered upon becoming a Christian was just how united in so many essential areas Christianity actually was, and reading the early Church Fathers only continued to impress that upon me. I honestly think that a lot of people who were raised Christian sometimes take how united we are in so many areas for granted. Should we strive for more ecumencism? Absolutely, but the situation is far from hopeless, and one day Christ will personally lead us back into perfect unity.
(d) is just part of the problem of evil argument. It has a number of answers shared with the usual rebuttal to the PoE. William Lane Craig and Paul Copan take that stance that natural disasters are simply the expected results of a universe operating according to natural laws, and that these laws were established with the purpose of maximizing God's purpose for human creation. Others point out that nature is reeling from the presence of sin in the world, and that Satan is still the god of this world, and looks for any way that he can to steal, kill, and destroy.
(e) is only an issue for a God with limited resources and limited time. Again, Craig puts it beautifully when he states, "This whole model of God as the engineer who has to marshal his resources and use them only in the most efficient way is...just a very defective understanding of who God is, who, I think, is probably more like the artist who enjoys creating a beautifully fine-tuned universe."
This presentation isn't very novel. Most of these issues have been discussed in apologetic circles for ages. I do think Wall underestimated Starlight though. Starlight is dishonest, vain, morally jacked, and has about as bad a memory as he does reading comprehension, but he's not an idiot. He's spent enough time in his little anti-Christian echo chambers to memorize all of the standard skeptical arguments. I also think Wall's historical argument, while having merit once someone already accepts the existence of the divine, and the miraculous, carries less weight to an out and out atheist/agnostic. Natural theology is probably the better way to go when dealing with someone who doesn't even believe in God.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe most people who would come do so, or all people who would come, do so?
Originally posted by JimL View PostWhat differentiates those who would come and did so, from those who would come, but didn't.
Free will choice. I'm not really interested in debating the subject, but Craig gets into it in the link I provided if you're sincerely curious.
Originally posted by JimL View PostI don't think this definition of your argument makes sense.
1.) That isn't a definition. 2.) I didn't make an argument. 3.) It's not my argument, it's Dr. William Lane Craig's.
Originally posted by JimL View PostAgain, it makes no sense to argue that God can't walk on water or perform any other sort of miracle unless people have faith in his ability to do so.
Jim, I'm not at all interested in trying to convince you of anything. You're demonstrated for years that your mind is absolutely locked to anything to do with Christianity and belief in God. I know that. You know that. So if it doesn't make sense to you, then I'm not terribly worried about it. In case you're curious though Matthew 14:30-31 does get into the faith aspect of that miracle.
Originally posted by JimL View PostThere is only one issue that atheist hold to, and that is the issue of Gods non-existence, and that is an issue to which there is no disagreement, else they would not be atheists.
Don't tell me. Tell your friends over at Atheism+ and American Atheists.
Originally posted by JimL View PostOf course, there is only one bible, but disharmony of interpretation doesn't make the bible itself either true or false.
Um, Ok. I agree?
Originally posted by JimL View PostSilly. If they are gods laws, then calling them natural laws doesn't change anything,God would still be responsible for natural disasters,
I don't know anyone who said that calling them "natural laws" changes anything. It appears you've missed the point entirely. Which is fine. Not like it was unexpected.
Originally posted by JimL View Postand if Satan, -(how silly)- then God again would still be ultimately responsible.
Not necessarily, but I realize you've got your mind made up on the subject. I'm certain we've had discussions on God's knowledge of free will actions vs. his responsibility for free will actions dozens of times in the past over the years.
Originally posted by JimL View PostNot clear what issue this is you are speaking of, so can't really comment on it.
That's ok. I wasn't talking to you anyways.
Originally posted by JimL View PostYes, if you have the miraculous and the devine already set in your mind as a true belief, then you will be much more likely to accept the the book upon which your belief is based as true history.
Last edited by Adrift; 06-26-2017, 03:57 PM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostHe had to give palentologists something to do.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostHe had to give palentologists something to do.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou may be forgiven for thinking this way due to exposure to nothing more than certain Protestant beliefs, but Christianity is about all of creation, not just man."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostStarlight does present a logical and coherent argument
I've never seen that kind of presentation anywhere before.
I note that after I posted the OP, Apologiaphoenix didn't think much of it and continued (in the Screwballs discussion that spawned this thread) mocking both me and the posted argument:
Originally posted by ApologiaphoenixIf there are years and studies, then why it is that I see the exact same arguments I see from your usual run of the mill internet atheist? Sorry, but it looks like many atheists, you have a Dunning-Kruger case where you just can't seem to accept that your arguments are nothing special and nothing brilliant at all."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostSays the guy who fell over laughing the other day because I mentioned aliens in a thought experiment?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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