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The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity

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  • #16
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I'm not getting into this - again - with you here.
    Then I'm not sure why you'd respond with your snarky comment in the first place.

    You know full well that "visions" is not an accurate characterization of what I - and pretty much all Christians - believe.
    I know it's not what you believe. The orthodox view relies upon being committed to later non-eyewitness legends that grew over time. Unfortunately, Paul says the appearances were visions and he's the earliest and only firsthand source.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
      Then I'm not sure why you'd respond with your snarky comment in the first place.
      Just a friendly reminder to all and sundry that we've already been over this ad nauseum, is all.
      I know it's not what you believe.
      Then don't ask me to defend it. Derp.
      The orthodox view relies upon being committed to later non-eyewitness legends that grew over time. Unfortunately, Paul says the appearances were visions and he's the earliest and only firsthand source.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #18
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Just a friendly reminder to all and sundry that we've already been over this ad nauseum, is all.
        Right. We've heard all the responses but never a refutation or anything that actually addresses the problem. This still remains a plausible defeater of the resurrection argument.

        Then don't ask me to defend it. Derp.
        Where did I ask you to defend anything?

        How does Paul say the Resurrected Jesus was experienced again? Was it through "visions and revelations" or did it involve physically touching a resurrected corpse that left an empty tomb and floated to heaven?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
          Right. We've heard all the responses but never a refutation or anything that actually addresses the problem. This still remains a plausible defeater of the resurrection argument.

          Where did I ask you to defend anything?

          How does Paul say the Resurrected Jesus was experienced again? Was it through "visions and revelations" or did it involve physically touching a resurrected corpse that left an empty tomb and floated to heaven?
          What part of "I'm not arguing this (yet again) here" do you not understand?
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #20
            I think the best argument for atheism is a metaphysical one: a necessary entity alone cannot wilfully cause a contingent thing.

            (Necessary: must exist in all possible worlds. Contingent: at least one world is possible (not just imaginable) in which it exists, and at least one world possible in which it doesn't exist)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by crepuscule View Post
              I think the best argument for atheism is a metaphysical one: a necessary entity alone cannot wilfully cause a contingent thing.

              (Necessary: must exist in all possible worlds. Contingent: at least one world is possible (not just imaginable) in which it exists, and at least one world possible in which it doesn't exist)
              What is necessary makes everything else contingent on it. Existence is necessary.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                What is necessary makes everything else contingent on it.
                Not sure what you’re saying here, or how it follows from the definitions I used that “what is necessary makes everything else contingent on it.”

                Existence is necessary.
                Don't know if this is true or what it has to do with the argument.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  It's a logical statement.

                  If God is omnipotent, and if God is omniscient, then logically he knows infinitely more than any of us.
                  Yes it's logical if you accept the premise of an omnipotent, omniscient deity. But there's no good reason why one should accept this premise.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                    History however is the one that brings the others into context. The judeans have been throufh the maccabean wars. The oppression of Rome has pushex the people to want revolt. Many see this time as a time for a deliverer. In that aspect it is quite remarkable to think that Jesus would appear then. It would be a bad idea to not go over Jesus's living situation. At two hears old he was hunted by Herod. At roughly prebusence he left to go to the temple where he was able to debate men who slent their lives dedicated to the Torah. He then at around his thirties was taken under the charge of sedition and executed. . . . He then appears alive. . . .

                    It is quite telling that the character who gives us the most vivid description of the passion was a physician. A greek. His name was Luke.
                    As a defense of Christianity, this argument looks pretty circular to me. It presupposes both scriptural inerrancy and the truth of orthodox Christianity's own traditions about its origins.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I believe that arguments for the belief in Atheism and the belief in Christianity are two different arguments. The better question is arguments for Atheism versus those for Theism or the existence of God.

                      The primary arguments from the perspective of Atheists and possibly strong agnostics is that God(s) do not exist regardless of the many varied beliefs by different religions and churches believe.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by crepuscule View Post
                        Not sure what you’re saying here, or how it follows from the definitions I used that “what is necessary makes everything else contingent on it.”

                        Don't know if this is true or what it has to do with the argument.
                        Existence is presumed. Uncaused existence is necessary. Existence what is omnipresent. There is not anything without existence. Uncaused existence is the primary identity of God. God's Hebrew Name can be translated the self Existent.

                        [Space is how we experience existence. Space is not omnipresent in that it has locality being subject to time and matter. We measure space by the matter in it. And time affects its measured dimensions. Things in space are not space, in a similar way things in existence are not the existence.]
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          What part of "I'm not arguing this (yet again) here" do you not understand?
                          Reading comprehension is low in this one.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                            The best argument against Christianity is that Paul, the earliest and only firsthand source, says the "appearances" of the Resurrected Jesus were "visions" . . .
                            No.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Existence is presumed. Uncaused existence is necessary. Existence what is omnipresent. There is not anything without existence. Uncaused existence is the primary identity of God. God's Hebrew Name can be translated the self Existent.

                              [Space is how we experience existence. Space is not omnipresent in that it has locality being subject to time and matter. We measure space by the matter in it. And time affects its measured dimensions. Things in space are not space, in a similar way things in existence are not the existence.]
                              I still fail to see the relevance to the point I made, so I won’t even go into this. I clearly defined contingent as “what can exist but need not”, and not as “what is dependent on something else”. As far as I know these definitions are not equivalent.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by crepuscule View Post
                                I still fail to see the relevance to the point I made, so I won’t even go into this. I clearly defined contingent as “what can exist but need not”, and not as “what is dependent on something else”. As far as I know these definitions are not equivalent.
                                OK. That is the distinction you are making.
                                You need explain how anything can exist without existence [to exist]?
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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