The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity

[lee_merrill]

The Delta floods every year, and is covered by water and swamps.

But how would you know if a year was missing?

Blessings,
Lee

[shunyadragon]

You're making me look up references! From Evidence that Demands a Verdict, 1979 edition:

Source: Archeology Underwater

Today hardly a single stone of Tyre remains intact... Tyre has become a place 'to dry fish nets' as the prophet had predicted.

© Copyright Original Source

Apparently the fishing nets were drying on the shore, after the sinking of Tyre.

Source: Your Guide to Lebanon

I went to visit Tyre on a summer's day. The town was sleepy, the harbor still. Fishing boats were putting out to sea. Pale turquoise fishing nets were drying on the shore.

© Copyright Original Source

Blessings,
Lee

your reference Archaeology Underwater cannot be accessed.

More tourist guide boo ha ha. The sleepy town of Tyre still exists above water.

Of course the original Tyre no longer exists, which archaeology has found where the walls, fortress and temple existed, but the city of Tyre was rebuilt and continued to occupied until the present.

[JimL]

That's a point that I've been making for years. When the gospels and letters were written and being circulated there were still a large number of eyewitnesses around to the events who could and would have called B.S. if they contained, um, "fake news" rather than good news. The gospels especially would have had a very difficult time being accepted which all indications point to that they weren't. It would be like someone today writing about, say, their experiences in Vietnam during the war and loading it with wild fantasies. Even though it happened several decades ago there are still far too many people alive who would have been onsite of where the author claimed these things occurred and could expose him.

If the claimed events were bs, then nobody witnessed them, so no, there wouldn't be any eyewitnesses around who could call them bs. There were obviously plenty of people around who believed the gospels were all bs, they're called non-christians.

[JimL]

And if it were all fake news, considering the persecution the saints went through, you would have expected that those who made it up (the apostles) would have abandoned those stories pretty quick since their lives were on the line. Pretty easy to just blend back into Jewish society and not be chased around the middle east by both the Jews and the Romans. And the church kept growing in leaps and bounds even with such incredible tales. People must have had a reason to believe the stories or it would have just petered out and gone away.

The persecution that the saints went through would be part of the fake news. There is no evidence outside of the bible of either the apostles, or of their martyrdom. But religions don't just peter out simply because they are false, if that were the case then christianity, being the only true religion of course, would be the only religion to still be around, but it's not. So much for that argument!

[Tassman]

That's a point that I've been making for years. When the gospels and letters were written and being circulated there were still a large number of eyewitnesses around to the events who could and would have called B.S. if they contained, um, "fake news" rather than good news. The gospels especially would have had a very difficult time being accepted which all indications point to that they weren't. It would be like someone today writing about, say, their experiences in Vietnam during the war and loading it with wild fantasies. Even though it happened several decades ago there are still far too many people alive who would have been onsite of where the author claimed these things occurred and could expose him.

These events supposedly occurred during a credulous era when miracles and magic were accepted at face value and, interestingly in this instance not recorded for 50 to 70 years after the events allowing for interpretation and embellishment. They were the sorts of things people expected of gods.

They don’t happen now...unless you accept the high-jinks of the likes of Benny Hinn or the so-called miracle of Fatima etc. It’s hardly a coincidence that the very time when these things no longer happen is the same time that we have the means and methods to check them in the light of science and careful investigation. In short, miraculous events were commonplace in a gullible era; they are no longer commonplace in the scientific age.

[lee_merrill]

Of course the original Tyre no longer exists, which archaeology has found where the walls, fortress and temple existed, but the city of Tyre was rebuilt and continued to occupied until the present.

On the shore, yes, but the ruins of the island city are substantially underwater.

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

These events supposedly occurred during a credulous era when miracles and magic were accepted at face value and, interestingly in this instance not recorded for 50 to 70 years after the events allowing for interpretation and embellishment. They were the sorts of things people expected of gods.

Though Paul refers to "more than 500 brothers" who saw Jesus after his death, most of whom were still living (1 Cor. 15:6).

They don’t happen now...unless you accept the high-jinks of the likes of Benny Hinn or the so-called miracle of Fatima etc. It’s hardly a coincidence that the very time when these things no longer happen is the same time that we have the means and methods to check them in the light of science and careful investigation. In short, miraculous events were commonplace in a gullible era; they are no longer commonplace in the scientific age.

And ancient people were hardly more gullible than we are.

"Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, 'We shall hear you again concerning this.' " (Ac 17:32)

"Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." (Mt 28:16-17)

They weren't all of a rush to believe any old thing that was said to be supernatural.

Best wishes,
Lee

[JimL]

Though Paul refers to "more than 500 brothers" who saw Jesus after his death, most of whom were still living (1 Cor. 15:6).

500 anonymous brothers. Don't believe everything you read.

And ancient people were hardly more gullible than we are.

True, a lot of people today believe the same things with no more evidence than the ancients were given.

"Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, 'We shall hear you again concerning this.' " (Ac 17:32)

"Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." (Mt 28:16-17)

They weren't all of a rush to believe any old thing that was said to be supernatural.

It's a story, not a history. You're assuming it's history. You can't confirm the historic validity of a biblical story by reading the biblical story.

[lee_merrill]

500 anonymous brothers.

But are you saying the author made this up? It's an appeal to people living today, who saw Jesus risen from the dead. Now you might say that 500 people made up this event, but I think the author making up the notion of 500 people whom you can consult, unlikely.

It's a story, not a history. You're assuming it's history. You can't confirm the historic validity of a biblical story by reading the biblical story.

Luke is actually a good historian, many details of his account have been verified. But the point was that people of ancient times were not especially gullible, even if these are just stories, I think the point still stands.

Blessings,
Lee

[shunyadragon]

On the shore, yes, but the ruins of the island city are substantially underwater.

Blessings,
Lee

No they are not. Only the extreme southern part of the island of Hercules. The rest of the main island of the city of Tyre remains above water.

[Roy]

It was a bare rock for a while, and then apparently, it sank.

You're making me look up references! From Evidence that Demands a Verdict, 1979 edition:

Source: Archeology Underwater

Today hardly a single stone of Tyre remains intact... Tyre has become a place 'to dry fish nets' as the prophet had predicted.

© Copyright Original Source

Apparently the fishing nets were drying on the shore, after the sinking of Tyre.

Source: Your Guide to Lebanon

I went to visit Tyre on a summer's day. The town was sleepy, the harbor still. Fishing boats were putting out to sea. Pale turquoise fishing nets were drying on the shore.

© Copyright Original Source

Blessings,
Lee

Apart from your references explicitly contradicting each other - if Tyre is a sleepy town with a harbour it clearly still exists and has many intact stones - you're now suggesting that the underwater areas where columns and stones exist, and which you have claimed to be the part of Tyre referred to by the prophesy and which became bare rock, were above water in 1965 (when Nina Nelson was writing) and sank beneath the waves since then.

Such events should be easy to document - unless you made it up.

[Roy]

But are you saying the author made this up? It's an appeal to people living today, who saw Jesus risen from the dead. Now you might say that 500 people made up this event, but I think the author making up the notion of 500 people whom you can consult, unlikely.

Exactly how were the audience of Paul's letter supposed to consult these supposed 500 people who were not only unnamed but who lived on the other side of the sea?

Paul was writing to people who did not have the ability to find these things out for themselves, and claims that his words must be true because they would otherwise be easily falsified are hogwash.

[tabibito]

Apart from your references explicitly contradicting each other - if Tyre is a sleepy town with a harbour it clearly still exists and has many intact stones - you're now suggesting that the underwater areas where columns and stones exist, and which you have claimed to be the part of Tyre referred to by the prophesy and which became bare rock, were above water in 1965 (when Nina Nelson was writing) and sank beneath the waves since then.

Such events should be easy to document - unless you made it up.

What is now and was in the first century called Tyre, is and was not the Tyre that was attacked by Alexander. What is now Tyre, was in Alexander's time the mainland "suburb" of Tyre, called Ushu (aka Old Tyre). The Bible explicitly refers to the island.

[rogue06]

Exactly how were the audience of Paul's letter supposed to consult these supposed 500 people who were not only unnamed but who lived on the other side of the sea?

Paul was writing to people who did not have the ability to find these things out for themselves, and claims that his words must be true because they would otherwise be easily falsified are hogwash.

Reading Paul's letters it is apparent that there was a great deal of proselytizing going on (which largely included people "who lived on the other side of the sea") in the areas he visited. If he was simply making things up these folks would have called him out and considering that not all of them were friendly toward Paul they would have delighted in doing so.

You don't necessarily need one of the 500 but a couple of people who encountered some of them.

[Roy]

What is now and was in the first century called Tyre, is and was not the Tyre that was attacked by Alexander. What is now Tyre, was in Alexander's time the mainland "suburb" of Tyre, called Ushu (aka Old Tyre). The Bible explicitly refers to the island.

But which bit is "was a bare rock for a while, and then apparently, it sank"?

This so-called prophecy could, if it was genuine, be easily cleared up using Google's satellite images to show the areas that were (i) destroyed, (ii) not rebuilt, (iii) now used for nets. That no-one seems able to do this is a strong indication that this prophecy claim is bunk.