Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    That doesn't even make sense.

    Says who, based on what? How does a timeless, changeless agent, do anything?



    I don't think its known what lies outside our universe of spacetime Sparko, or that it began as a singularity.
    It isn't. That's the point. You can't use your argument to say it is not God.

    But yes we can say it began as a singularity. We have been saying it for over half a century.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      a personal agent with free will can cause a change, . . .
      True

      where a non-personal agent cannot.
      This is a philosophical/theological assumption, and not based on the evidence.

      Based on Quantum Mechanics, Natural Law and our physical existence is possibly eternal, and self caused. There is no known prior cause for the basic particles objectively observed.

      If there is no space and no time then it would take a freewill decision to create change.
      Based on our present knowledge of Quantum Mechanics the Quantum zero point energy potentially exists in no space and time, and it is possible that it is the matrix of the Multiverse and all possible universes.

      Now you propose a previous universe that is the cause of the big bang.
      No, not a universe, but the possibility of Quantum zero-point energy matrix that may be the origin of universes.

      But that only moves the problem back one level.
      It is possible that Natural Laws and the nature of our physical existence is eternal, and no problem going back and level, by the definition of Quantum Mechanics there is no known beginning nor end to the Quantum World.

      It is also an assumption on the part of Theists that God is the only possible source, and our physical existence is finite (no evidence that this is the case), but the question always arises moving back by one level what or who created God.


      Sure you can make up whatever you want to, but again it is indeed "argument from ignorance" since you have no idea what caused the big bang to go bang or if there is any previous universe(s) or anything. You are ignorant of any information yet you make the argument. Argument from ignorance.
      This is in and of itself an 'argument from ignorance.' By the limits of the evidence I make no claim either way. It remains an open question based faith for both Theists and Atheists.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        It isn't. That's the point. You can't use your argument to say it is not God.
        Yes I can. There is no evidence of god, or that the universe, our universe, was created out of, or emerged from out of, nothing. If anything, the reverse is true, i.e. that nothing comes from nothing.
        But yes we can say it began as a singularity. We have been saying it for over half a century.
        No we can't, the big bang singularity comes from Einsteins theory of gravity, the expansion of the universe, which if traced back to infinity would give you a singularity. But we don't need to trace the expansion back to infinity, any more than we would have to trace your own growth/expansion back to an infinite point, to a singularity birth. Cosmic inflation doesn't depend on a singularity.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

          I was pointing out that JimL's objections would preclude the existence of the universe instead of just God.
          I argue that both the Theist and the Atheist argument cannot preclude either way, The existence of God nor the non-existence of God cannot be argued without making philosophical or theological presuppositions.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Yes I can. There is no evidence of god, or that the universe, our universe, was created out of, or emerged from out of, nothing. If anything, the reverse is true, i.e. that nothing comes from nothing.
            right again. You keep beating up your own argument.

            I think I will just stand back and let you run yourself over.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              The Laws of Nature concerning the nature of the Quantum World are not dependent on the existence 'time' nor 'space.' I propose that the physical verifiable evidence is neutral to any argument for or against the existence of God.
              Absolutely false. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle is central to quantum mechanics, and is the foundation for such effects as quantum tunneling. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle requires the existence of space-time (delta-x or delta-t). There can be no quantum fluctuations or quantum tunneling in the absence of space-time.
              "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                Absolutely false. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle is central to quantum mechanics, and is the foundation for such effects as quantum tunneling. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle requires the existence of space-time (delta-x or delta-t). There can be no quantum fluctuations or quantum tunneling in the absence of space-time.
                Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation


                In quantum physics, a quantum fluctuation (or quantum vacuum fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space,[1] as explained in Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

                © Copyright Original Source



                At the moment of a quantum fluctuation there is time and a "temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space." The matrix of the Quantum World out side the universe and "quantum fluctuations" can possible be timeless.

                Source: https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0112119


                Quantum mechanics without spacetime - a possible case for noncommutative differential geometry?

                T. P. Singh (Tata Institute, Mumbai)
                (Submitted on 20 Dec 2001)
                The rules of quantum mechanics require a time coordinate for their formulation. However, a notion of time is in general possible only when a classical spacetime geometry exists. Such a geometry is itself produced by classical matter sources. Thus it could be said that the currently known formulation of quantum mechanics pre-assumes the presence of classical matter fields. A more fundamental formulation of quantum mechanics should exist, which avoids having to use a notion of time. In this paper we discuss as to how such a fundamental formulation could be constructed for single particle, non-relativistic quantum mechanics. We argue that there is an underlying non-linear theory of quantum gravity, to which both standard quantum mechanics and classical general relativity are approximations. The timeless formulation of quantum mechanics follows from the underlying theory when the mass of the particle is much smaller than Planck mass. On the other hand, when the particle's mass is much larger than Planck mass, space/time emerges and the underlying theory should reduce to classical mechanics and general relativity. We also suggest that noncommutative differential geometry is a possible candidate for describing this underlying theory.

                © Copyright Original Source



                More to follow . . .
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation


                  In quantum physics, a quantum fluctuation (or quantum vacuum fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space,[1] as explained in Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  Read further down the same article:
                  Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation


                  A quantum fluctuation is the temporary appearance of energetic particles out of empty space, as allowed by the uncertainty principle. The uncertainty principle states that for a pair of conjugate variables such as position/momentum or energy/time, it is impossible to have a precisely determined value of each member of the pair at the same time. For example, a particle pair can pop out of the vacuum during a very short time interval.

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  Thus, spacetime is necessary for quantum fluctuations.

                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  At the moment of a quantum fluctuation there is time and a "temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space." The matrix of the Quantum World out side the universe and "quantum fluctuations" can possible be timeless.

                  Source: https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0112119


                  Quantum mechanics without spacetime - a possible case for noncommutative differential geometry?

                  T. P. Singh (Tata Institute, Mumbai)
                  (Submitted on 20 Dec 2001)
                  The rules of quantum mechanics require a time coordinate for their formulation. However, a notion of time is in general possible only when a classical spacetime geometry exists. Such a geometry is itself produced by classical matter sources. Thus it could be said that the currently known formulation of quantum mechanics pre-assumes the presence of classical matter fields. A more fundamental formulation of quantum mechanics should exist, which avoids having to use a notion of time. In this paper we discuss as to how such a fundamental formulation could be constructed for single particle, non-relativistic quantum mechanics. We argue that there is an underlying non-linear theory of quantum gravity, to which both standard quantum mechanics and classical general relativity are approximations. The timeless formulation of quantum mechanics follows from the underlying theory when the mass of the particle is much smaller than Planck mass. On the other hand, when the particle's mass is much larger than Planck mass, space/time emerges and the underlying theory should reduce to classical mechanics and general relativity. We also suggest that noncommutative differential geometry is a possible candidate for describing this underlying theory.

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  More to follow . . .
                  The part that I have bolded is standard, testable quantum mechanics. Yes, the author hopes that it MAY be possible to re-formulate quantum mechanics in a way that is independent of space-time. But this is purely speculative, wishful thinking on his part (and yours). In its present, testable formulation, quantum mechanics requires the existence of space-time.
                  Last edited by Kbertsche; 06-14-2017, 06:29 PM.
                  "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                    Read further down the same article:
                    You'd think that, having been refuted for the umpteenth time from his own sources, that shunya would learn to be a little more careful.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      right again. You keep beating up your own argument.

                      I think I will just stand back and let you run yourself over.
                      How does the fact that "NOTHING COMES FROM NOTHING" beat up my own argument? Only according to the "god did it" hypothesis, does the universe come from "nothing." My argument is that the universe doesn't come from nothing, its just a part of that "Something" which has always been.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                        Read further down the same article:
                        Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation


                        A quantum fluctuation is the temporary appearance of energetic particles out of empty space, as allowed by the uncertainty principle. The uncertainty principle states that for a pair of conjugate variables such as position/momentum or energy/time, it is impossible to have a precisely determined value of each member of the pair at the same time. For example, a particle pair can pop out of the vacuum during a very short time interval.

                        © Copyright Original Source


                        Thus, spacetime is necessary for quantum fluctuations.
                        True, but they can be momentary, and not continuous space/time. Your reference confirms my view. Thus, space/time can be momentary and temporary for space/time for the event of the Quantum fluctuation itself.

                        The part that I have bolded is standard, testable quantum mechanics. Yes, the author hopes that it MAY be possible to re-formulate quantum mechanics in a way that is independent of space-time. But this is purely speculative, wishful thinking on his part (and yours). In its present, testable formulation, quantum mechanics requires the existence of space-time.
                        No, the author does not hope, you are miss quoting him, and not quoting me properly. I said 'possibly', and the reference confirms this.

                        It is not purely speculative your adding your own adjective interpretations here. You are conveniently and selectively ignoring the rest of the reference which is the explanation of timelessness.

                        From the source cited: "The timeless formulation of quantum mechanics follows from the underlying theory when the mass of the particle is much smaller than Planck mass. On the other hand, when the particle's mass is much larger than Planck mass, space/time emerges and the underlying theory should reduce to classical mechanics and general relativity. We also suggest that noncommutative differential geometry is a possible candidate for describing this underlying theory."

                        More to follow . . .
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-14-2017, 09:42 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Source: http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0264-9381/11/12/005/meta



                          The timelessness of quantum gravity: I. The evidence from the classical theory

                          Abstract

                          The issue of time is addressed. It is argued that time as such does not exist but that instants, defined as complete relative configurations of the universe, do. It is shown how the classical mechanics (both non-relativistic and generally relativistic) of a complete universe can be expressed solely in terms of such relative configurations. Time is therefore a redundant concept, as are external inertial frames of reference (so that Machian ideas about the relativity of motion are fully implemented). Although time plays no role in kinematics, it can be recovered as an effective concept associated with any classical history of the universe. In the case of classical mechanics, this operationally defined time is identical to the astronomers' ephemeris time. In the case of general relativity it is shown how local proper time is a kind of local ephemeris time. It is argued that because general relativity is timeless in a deep and precise sense, the standard representation of the theory as a theory of curved space/time disguises important aspects of its structure and that just these aspects may be the most important for the quantum form of the theory. This issue and the effective recovery of time from a genuinely timeless quantum theory are addressed in a following companion paper.

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            True, but they can be momentary, and not continuous space/time. Your reference confirms my view. Thus, space/time can be momentary and temporary for space/time for the event of the Quantum fluctuation itself.
                            Shuny, perhaps you don't understand the Heisenberg uncertainty principle? It is expressed by the equations below:
                            IMG_0700.GIF
                            In these equations, the Greek letter "delta" means "difference". In order for the Heisenberg uncertainty principle to apply, there must be a difference in time (t) or in spatial position (x). Space-time must exist in order for time and position differences to be defined.
                            Last edited by Kbertsche; 06-14-2017, 10:59 PM.
                            "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              That's not even an argument. It's just you stating your opinion.
                              Just as yours is an Argument from Ignorance.

                              as far as God changing things: The ONLY thing that can make a change when there is no time, is an intelligent agent who is not bound by time.
                              You don’t know this. It's just you stating your opinion.

                              Your argument just defeated the Big Bang. How did the singularity that expanded into the universe, creating time and space, expand if there was no time, and expand into what if there was no space?
                              Just because a state of affairs is impossible to imagine, it doesn't follow that it is false or that we have thought of all possible solutions.

                              E.g. the universe could be infinite, with our universe merely being but one of an infinite number of universes. There’s some evidence to support this theory. We don’t know as yet. But it’s a possibility and doesn’t require a god-of-the-gaps argument, which in effect brings all future enquiries to a halt.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                                Shuny, perhaps you don't understand the Heisenberg uncertainty principle? It is expressed by the equations below:
                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]22795[/ATTACH]
                                In these equations, the Greek letter "delta" means "difference". In order for the Heisenberg uncertainty principle to apply, there must be a difference in time (t) or in spatial position (x). Space-time must exist in order for time and position differences to be defined.
                                I understand it very well. and you are clearly, conveniently, and selectively ignoring the references I cited.

                                As described in the references I cited: Thus, space/time can be momentary and temporary for space/time for the event of the Quantum fluctuation itself.

                                More to follow . . .
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
                                39 responses
                                158 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                129 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                80 responses
                                426 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                303 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X