Originally posted by 37818
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostYou missed this:
So your objection is already covered.
I'm not sure I was "objecting" per se - merely reflecting my understanding of the physics.
It appears 37818 and I were basically agreeing...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWell, in my experience, the "why" of our disagreements on the idea of god is usually rooted in the different presuppositions we accept as true. So what are the presuppositions you accept as true that serve as the basis for your belief in god?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe main presupposition being that God is the Existence proper. And that God is the God of the Hebrews whose Name means self Existent, as the Person Who Is. (Exodus 3:14-15).
I am aware of the meanings of "Yahweh" and "Jehovah." I do not believe the ancient meaning of a name confers truth on the concept, any more than I think that the root of my name, which means "Who is like god?" says anything about my being.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe main presupposition being that God is the Existence proper. And that God is the God of the Hebrews whose Name means self Existent, as the Person Who Is. (Exodus 3:14-15).
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe main presupposition being that God is the Existence proper. And that God is the God of the Hebrews whose Name means self Existent, as the Person Who Is. (Exodus 3:14-15).
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The single best argument against Christianity, has been, is, and will always be the problem of evil. Christians have always admitted as much. There is evil, yet God is perfectly good. These two facts exist in a paradoxical tension that admits of no easy solution. This problem is compounded when we face evil in our own life, and can't find an explanation for it. Christianity tells us there's a huge story all things fit into, yet the evil and pain we experience feels random, chaotic, fitting more into a play like Waiting for Godot.
One can give various defenses that the existence of such evil ultimate constitutes no real argument against Christianity. It is possible to trust in a meaning, unseen and beyond us that ties together these things, that will be revealed at the end of time. And for the rational version of the problem of evil. This suffices.
For the emotive, or personal experience problem, this is more complicated. We can of course simple grow our virtues of faith to the point where we simple ignore what we experience. And simple trust that all will be well in the end. All will be righted. Every, single, wrong. We can speculate, like C.S Lewis does in the Problem of Pain, that God uses suffering to wake us up and shape us into holy people if let the experience do this to us prayerfully. Ultimately most people have mix of either going on.
I'm satisfied with the rational argument. The problem of evil can be shown not to be a decisive argument against Christianity, nor even a probabilistic argument.
The experiental problem of evil requires a pastoral approach, and one of experience, meditation and prayer. Ultimately one makes a decision.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostThe single best argument against Christianity, has been, is, and will always be the problem of evil. Christians have always admitted as much. There is evil, yet God is perfectly good. These two facts exist in a paradoxical tension that admits of no easy solution. This problem is compounded when we face evil in our own life, and can't find an explanation for it. Christianity tells us there's a huge story all things fit into, yet the evil and pain we experience feels random, chaotic, fitting more into a play like Waiting for Godot.
One can give various defenses that the existence of such evil ultimate constitutes no real argument against Christianity. It is possible to trust in a meaning, unseen and beyond us that ties together these things, that will be revealed at the end of time. And for the rational version of the problem of evil. This suffices.
For the emotive, or personal experience problem, this is more complicated. We can of course simple grow our virtues of faith to the point where we simple ignore what we experience. And simple trust that all will be well in the end. All will be righted. Every, single, wrong. We can speculate, like C.S Lewis does in the Problem of Pain, that God uses suffering to wake us up and shape us into holy people if let the experience do this to us prayerfully. Ultimately most people have mix of either going on.
I'm satisfied with the rational argument. The problem of evil can be shown not to be a decisive argument against Christianity, nor even a probabilistic argument.
The experiental problem of evil requires a pastoral approach, and one of experience, meditation and prayer. Ultimately one makes a decision.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI think a better argument is the one against the idea that the material world was spoken into existence, created out of nothing. Afaics, there is no reason to believe that whatsoever. First off the thiest has to believe in a god for which there is no substantive evidence, then they have to believe that by that unknowable god, the material world just came into existence from out of nothing, aka creation.
It's unfortunate, in my view, that this puts me in the position of being seen (often) as a ridiculer of theists. That view is further enhanced by the number of atheists who DO take a ridiculing position against theists. I know of no one who adopts a worldview maliciously or trivially. That does not make all worldviews equally correct. Naturally, I believe mine is (or I would not hold it and would have a different one), so I believe worldviews that are not the same as mine are incorrect. But that is what everyone does - so I have to acknowlegde that theist has the same view of me that I have of them. If I do not want to be ridiculed for mine, I have to believe they do not want to be ridiculed for theirs.
There is a lot we can teach each other if we spend a little time and listen. If nothing else, juxtaposing our worldview against that of someone who thinks differently provides us an opportunity to test our own, and adjust where it is lacking. That is my preferred way of engaging with people here, or anywhere in my life.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostUmm... I'm sorry...but you're not really saying anything that means anything to me. I'm not sure what is gained by capitalizing existence, or adding the word proper. Are you trying to articulate Aquinas' concept of god as "esse" - existence? If so, I have to admit I have long since come to a point where that entire concept just doesn't make any sense to me. You'll have to explain it.
Existence itself is the fundamental self evident truth by which all other self evident truths are self evident. That existence is the identity of God. Things which exist are not the existence. Only existence is itself. I capitalized Existence to indicate my presupposition for you that It is what God is being the Uncaused Existence as I know Him. God is both infinite and personal being omnipresent. Like the Apostle Paul used in an argument, "In Him we live, and move, and have our being." Genuine Christians in general may know know God as such but they do know Him through Christ. For genuine Christians knowing God by knowing Jesus Christ as their Savior is how they know they have eternal life. (John 14:6; John 17:3; 1 John 5:9-13; Titus 1:2).
I am aware of the meanings of "Yahweh" and "Jehovah." I do not believe the ancient meaning of a name confers truth on the concept, any more than I think that the root of my name, which means "Who is like god?" says anything about my being.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostThe single best argument against Christianity, has been, is, and will always be the problem of evil. Christians have always admitted as much. There is evil, yet God is perfectly good. These two facts exist in a paradoxical tension that admits of no easy solution. This problem is compounded when we face evil in our own life, and can't find an explanation for it. Christianity tells us there's a huge story all things fit into, yet the evil and pain we experience feels random, chaotic, fitting more into a play like Waiting for Godot.
One can give various defenses that the existence of such evil ultimate constitutes no real argument against Christianity. It is possible to trust in a meaning, unseen and beyond us that ties together these things, that will be revealed at the end of time. And for the rational version of the problem of evil. This suffices.
For the emotive, or personal experience problem, this is more complicated. We can of course simple grow our virtues of faith to the point where we simple ignore what we experience. And simple trust that all will be well in the end. All will be righted. Every, single, wrong. We can speculate, like C.S Lewis does in the Problem of Pain, that God uses suffering to wake us up and shape us into holy people if let the experience do this to us prayerfully. Ultimately most people have mix of either going on.
I'm satisfied with the rational argument. The problem of evil can be shown not to be a decisive argument against Christianity, nor even a probabilistic argument.
The experiental problem of evil requires a pastoral approach, and one of experience, meditation and prayer. Ultimately one makes a decision.
Just as a lie needs truth. Evil needs good. without good there can be no evil. Now God is the infinite good. It is finite good which can be corrupted by evil. God in story made man good. but fall of man was that the created good man, without the knowledge of good, in disobedience acquiring God's knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22).Last edited by 37818; 12-12-2017, 08:31 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThere are self-evident truths. Also what does not exist is not true.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostExistence itself is the fundamental self evident truth by which all other self evident truths are self evident.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostThat existence is the identity of God. Things which exist are not the existence.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostOnly existence is itself.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostI capitalized Existence to indicate my presupposition for you that It is what God is being the Uncaused Existence as I know Him.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostGod is both infinite and personal being omnipresent. Like the Apostle Paul used in an argument, "In Him we live, and move, and have our being." Genuine Christians in general may know know God as such but they do know Him through Christ. For genuine Christians knowing God by knowing Jesus Christ as their Savior is how they know they have eternal life. (John 14:6; John 17:3; 1 John 5:9-13; Titus 1:2).
Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhile our human names do not determine our character. God's Hebrew Name is Who He Is.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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I haven't read all 62 pages(!), but I think the best argument for Christianity is fulfilled prophecy. Such as the four kingdoms in Daniel, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks and the Romans, ending in "partly iron and partly baked clay." This latter statement is still true today, a divided world in Europe, and this is the last stage before God sets his kingdom up in the world.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostI haven't read all 62 pages(!), but I think the best argument for Christianity is fulfilled prophecy. Such as the four kingdoms in Daniel, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks and the Romans, ending in "partly iron and partly baked clay." This latter statement is still true today, a divided world in Europe, and this is the last stage before God sets his kingdom up in the world.
Blessings,
LeeThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have found that pretty much all logical arguments for an against the existence of a god encounter problems at one point or another, and scientific arguments tend to fail altogether. My beliefs concerning the existence of a god are more experiential than they are definitively logical/scientific. There is nothing in my experience that speaks to the existence of a god
It's unfortunate, in my view, that this puts me in the position of being seen (often) as a ridiculer of theists. That view is further enhanced by the number of atheists who DO take a ridiculing position against theists."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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