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Thread: The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity

  1. #11
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    Ahem.

    "God allows things to be as they are because he knows infinitely better than you."
    It's a logical statement.

    If God is omnipotent, and if God is omniscient, then logically he knows infinitely more than any of us.

    I'm not sure what part of that you disagree with.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  2. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  3. #12
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
    The best argument against Christianity is that Paul, the earliest and only firsthand source, says the "appearances" of the Resurrected Jesus were "visions" and not physical interactions with a formerly dead corpse that had been brought back to life. The later gospel depictions and empty tomb story are not firsthand reports and exhibit a legend growing in chronological order with the Risen Jesus being depicted as more physical/corporeal over time. These depictions were most likely influenced by Greco-Roman views of immortality. When Christianity became a gentile religion they applied their concepts of immortal hero worship to the Jesus story and the original spiritual visionary Jesus of Paul and the earliest Christians evolved to something entirely different.

    These days it's quite difficult to take anyone's spiritual visionary encounter seriously. This becomes immediately obvious when apologists vehemently argue against the notion that the appearances of Jesus were just mere visions (obviously they don't take visions seriously either which is ironic considering both the OT and NT have numerous passages where people experience "visions"). Unfortunately, that's what the earliest Christian source says they were and the Jewish background regarding spiritual visionary experiences provided a foundation for these type of beliefs to arise.
    Still banging away on the same ol' drum, eh?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  4. Amen Sparko, Jedidiah, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  5. #13
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    (d) there would be less naturally occurring suffering in the world (disease, earthquakes, etc).
    A to d are just baseless speculation. I could just as easily say that there would be even more religions and fewer miraculous reports if there was no God and the ones we have are proof God exists.

    (e) a deity could create the world and the life on it instantly, but everything we know about astronomy and biology tells us that naturalistic processes over billions of years were what formed our galaxy, our solar system, our planet, and evolved life on it.
    Time is relative.

    To phrase it as a single argument: The world as I observe it does not show any of the kinds of thing I would expect to see in a world created by or actively interfered with by a deity, whereas the observed world seems entirely consistent with the lack of a deity. Thus the weight of the observed evidence points to atheism (or something close to it - e.g. that the deity's interference is minuscule).
    How is your personal subjective perspective the best argument for atheism? I view the exact opposite. The way a chemical chain reactions went from stars with simple elements to both complex elements and molecules that eventually rearrange themselves into beings capable of contemplating it all strikes me as inherently planned, but I don't make this an actual argument precisely because two different people can look at the same process and get entirely different vibes from it.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

  6. Amen Mountain Man, Jedidiah, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  7. #14
    tWebber RhinestoneCowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Still banging away on the same ol' drum, eh?
    Do you take ancient claims of visions seriously?

  8. #15
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
    Do you take ancient claims of visions seriously?
    I'm not getting into this - again - with you here. You know full well that "visions" is not an accurate characterization of what I - and pretty much all Christians - believe.

    If anyone is interested in my responses, they're free to go to earlier threads here, here, and here.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  9. Amen Cerebrum123, Jedidiah, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  10. #16
    tWebber RhinestoneCowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I'm not getting into this - again - with you here.
    Then I'm not sure why you'd respond with your snarky comment in the first place.

    You know full well that "visions" is not an accurate characterization of what I - and pretty much all Christians - believe.
    I know it's not what you believe. The orthodox view relies upon being committed to later non-eyewitness legends that grew over time. Unfortunately, Paul says the appearances were visions and he's the earliest and only firsthand source.

  11. #17
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
    Then I'm not sure why you'd respond with your snarky comment in the first place.
    Just a friendly reminder to all and sundry that we've already been over this ad nauseum, is all.
    I know it's not what you believe.
    Then don't ask me to defend it. Derp.
    The orthodox view relies upon being committed to later non-eyewitness legends that grew over time. Unfortunately, Paul says the appearances were visions and he's the earliest and only firsthand source.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  12. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  13. #18
    tWebber RhinestoneCowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Just a friendly reminder to all and sundry that we've already been over this ad nauseum, is all.
    Right. We've heard all the responses but never a refutation or anything that actually addresses the problem. This still remains a plausible defeater of the resurrection argument.

    Then don't ask me to defend it. Derp.
    Where did I ask you to defend anything?

    How does Paul say the Resurrected Jesus was experienced again? Was it through "visions and revelations" or did it involve physically touching a resurrected corpse that left an empty tomb and floated to heaven?

  14. #19
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
    Right. We've heard all the responses but never a refutation or anything that actually addresses the problem. This still remains a plausible defeater of the resurrection argument.

    Where did I ask you to defend anything?

    How does Paul say the Resurrected Jesus was experienced again? Was it through "visions and revelations" or did it involve physically touching a resurrected corpse that left an empty tomb and floated to heaven?
    What part of "I'm not arguing this (yet again) here" do you not understand?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  15. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  16. #20
    tWebber
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    I think the best argument for atheism is a metaphysical one: a necessary entity alone cannot wilfully cause a contingent thing.

    (Necessary: must exist in all possible worlds. Contingent: at least one world is possible (not just imaginable) in which it exists, and at least one world possible in which it doesn't exist)

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