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Thread: The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity

  1. #21
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crepuscule View Post
    I think the best argument for atheism is a metaphysical one: a necessary entity alone cannot wilfully cause a contingent thing.

    (Necessary: must exist in all possible worlds. Contingent: at least one world is possible (not just imaginable) in which it exists, and at least one world possible in which it doesn't exist)
    What is necessary makes everything else contingent on it. Existence is necessary.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  2. #22
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    What is necessary makes everything else contingent on it.
    Not sure what you’re saying here, or how it follows from the definitions I used that “what is necessary makes everything else contingent on it.”

    Existence is necessary.
    Don't know if this is true or what it has to do with the argument.

  3. #23
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    It's a logical statement.

    If God is omnipotent, and if God is omniscient, then logically he knows infinitely more than any of us.
    Yes it's logical if you accept the premise of an omnipotent, omniscient deity. But there's no good reason why one should accept this premise.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWall View Post
    History however is the one that brings the others into context. The judeans have been throufh the maccabean wars. The oppression of Rome has pushex the people to want revolt. Many see this time as a time for a deliverer. In that aspect it is quite remarkable to think that Jesus would appear then. It would be a bad idea to not go over Jesus's living situation. At two hears old he was hunted by Herod. At roughly prebusence he left to go to the temple where he was able to debate men who slent their lives dedicated to the Torah. He then at around his thirties was taken under the charge of sedition and executed. . . . He then appears alive. . . .

    It is quite telling that the character who gives us the most vivid description of the passion was a physician. A greek. His name was Luke.
    As a defense of Christianity, this argument looks pretty circular to me. It presupposes both scriptural inerrancy and the truth of orthodox Christianity's own traditions about its origins.

  5. #25
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    I believe that arguments for the belief in Atheism and the belief in Christianity are two different arguments. The better question is arguments for Atheism versus those for Theism or the existence of God.

    The primary arguments from the perspective of Atheists and possibly strong agnostics is that God(s) do not exist regardless of the many varied beliefs by different religions and churches believe.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  6. #26
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crepuscule View Post
    Not sure what you’re saying here, or how it follows from the definitions I used that “what is necessary makes everything else contingent on it.”

    Don't know if this is true or what it has to do with the argument.
    Existence is presumed. Uncaused existence is necessary. Existence what is omnipresent. There is not anything without existence. Uncaused existence is the primary identity of God. God's Hebrew Name can be translated the self Existent.

    [Space is how we experience existence. Space is not omnipresent in that it has locality being subject to time and matter. We measure space by the matter in it. And time affects its measured dimensions. Things in space are not space, in a similar way things in existence are not the existence.]
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. #27
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    What part of "I'm not arguing this (yet again) here" do you not understand?
    Reading comprehension is low in this one.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  8. #28
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
    The best argument against Christianity is that Paul, the earliest and only firsthand source, says the "appearances" of the Resurrected Jesus were "visions" . . .
    No.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  9. #29
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Existence is presumed. Uncaused existence is necessary. Existence what is omnipresent. There is not anything without existence. Uncaused existence is the primary identity of God. God's Hebrew Name can be translated the self Existent.

    [Space is how we experience existence. Space is not omnipresent in that it has locality being subject to time and matter. We measure space by the matter in it. And time affects its measured dimensions. Things in space are not space, in a similar way things in existence are not the existence.]
    I still fail to see the relevance to the point I made, so I won’t even go into this. I clearly defined contingent as “what can exist but need not”, and not as “what is dependent on something else”. As far as I know these definitions are not equivalent.

  10. #30
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crepuscule View Post
    I still fail to see the relevance to the point I made, so I won’t even go into this. I clearly defined contingent as “what can exist but need not”, and not as “what is dependent on something else”. As far as I know these definitions are not equivalent.
    OK. That is the distinction you are making.
    You need explain how anything can exist without existence [to exist]?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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