Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Am I understanding this correctly? The prophecy is that the Nile would dry up, and the lack of evidence that the Nile DIDN'T dry up is your basis for accepting that it did and the prophecy is fulfilled?
    The Nile has changed course a bit over the centuries and the delta has moved around with parts drying out and others getting wet, etc. causing the Egyptians to move around a bit. So I guess you could say that if the prophesy was from the point of view of the receivers, a severe drought or movement of the river/delta course could be considered "drying up"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      The Nile has changed course a bit over the centuries and the delta has moved around with parts drying out and others getting wet, etc. causing the Egyptians to move around a bit. So I guess you could say that if the prophesy was from the point of view of the receivers, a severe drought or movement of the river/delta course could be considered "drying up"
      One of the reasons I just don't put a lot of creedence in "prophecy." You can pretty much always make it true (or false) if you squint, stand on one leg, flap your left arm like a bird, and sing "Dixie Melody" in French.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        One of the reasons I just don't put a lot of creedence in "prophecy." You can pretty much always make it true (or false) if you squint, stand on one leg, flap your left arm like a bird, and sing "Dixie Melody" in French.
        for some. not always. And then when you chain some all together and they all still work out, then it makes it that more convincing. That is why I said I prefer the prophesies that point to Christ in the Old Testament. That is a lot of coincidences strung together.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Roy View Post
          Doesn't the prophecy not only claim that Tyre will not be rebuilt, but also that it will become a bare rock on which fishermen spread out their nets? You can't spread out a net to dry underwater.
          It was a bare rock for a while, and then apparently, it sank.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            . . . based on the possibiity of a miracle like the spreading of the Red Sea. The geologic and geomorphology of the sediments of the Delta and alluvial floodplain and terraces are conclusive evidence that the Nile never dried up.
            And why is that? There would be a missing flood line if the Nile dried up for a year or so, though it's not clear how long the Nile was supposed to dry up.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              for some. not always. And then when you chain some all together and they all still work out, then it makes it that more convincing. That is why I said I prefer the prophesies that point to Christ in the Old Testament. That is a lot of coincidences strung together.
              Unless, of course, the NT writers created those linkages as a way of saying, "this man was important - pay attention!"
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                The Nile has changed course a bit over the centuries and the delta has moved around with parts drying out and others getting wet, etc. causing the Egyptians to move around a bit. So I guess you could say that if the prophesy was from the point of view of the receivers, a severe drought or movement of the river/delta course could be considered "drying up"
                Only true in part when annual flood occurred pretty much all the Nile delta was under water or swamp. This only changed in recent years with the building of the Aswan Damn that reduced the annual flood and reduced the dry season flow, but the Nile nor the streams of the Nile dried up.

                The prophecy describes the 'streams' of the Nile. For the millennia the Nile was fed by the different forks of the Nile of the 'upper kingdom, and the forests above that fed the streams.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  It was a bare rock for a while, and then apparently, it sank.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  . . . but not the city of Tyre on the higher island where the walls fortress, and Temple were located based on the archaeology and shown on the maps showing the seige of Tyre.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    It was a bare rock for a while, and then apparently, it sank.
                    Evidence?

                    It's not bare rock now, since it's underwater.
                    It wasn't bare rock while the city was there.
                    There are still columns on the seabed, suggesting it wasn't bare rock when (if) it apparently sank.

                    Do you have any evidence that it was ever bare rock used by fisherman other than the prophesy itself?
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Unless, of course, the NT writers created those linkages as a way of saying, "this man was important - pay attention!"
                      since the bible is historical, they would have had a hard time convincing other people of made-up events and people. The others would know it was made up. Prophesies such as when and where the Messiah would be born, what he would do, how he would be buried, etc are pretty hard to fake.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Only true in part when annual flood occurred pretty much all the Nile delta was under water or swamp. This only changed in recent years with the building of the Aswan Damn that reduced the annual flood and reduced the dry season flow, but the Nile nor the streams of the Nile dried up.

                        The prophecy describes the 'streams' of the Nile. For the millennia the Nile was fed by the different forks of the Nile of the 'upper kingdom, and the forests above that fed the streams.
                        What makes you think the "streams" were not talking of the delta? It is made up of many streams. And many have dried up and others formed over the centuries. The silt eventually blocks some and new ones form.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          since the bible is historical, they would have had a hard time convincing other people of made-up events and people. The others would know it was made up. Prophesies such as when and where the Messiah would be born, what he would do, how he would be buried, etc are pretty hard to fake.
                          That's a point that I've been making for years. When the gospels and letters were written and being circulated there were still a large number of eyewitnesses around to the events who could and would have called B.S. if they contained, um, "fake news" rather than good news. The gospels especially would have had a very difficult time being accepted which all indications point to that they weren't. It would be like someone today writing about, say, their experiences in Vietnam during the war and loading it with wild fantasies. Even though it happened several decades ago there are still far too many people alive who would have been onsite of where the author claimed these things occurred and could expose him.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            That's a point that I've been making for years. When the gospels and letters were written and being circulated there were still a large number of eyewitnesses around to the events who could and would have called B.S. if they contained, um, "fake news" rather than good news. The gospels especially would have had a very difficult time being accepted which all indications point to that they weren't. It would be like someone today writing about, say, their experiences in Vietnam during the war and loading it with wild fantasies. Even though it happened several decades ago there are still far too many people alive who would have been onsite of where the author claimed these things occurred and could expose him.
                            And if it were all fake news, considering the persecution the saints went through, you would have expected that those who made it up (the apostles) would have abandoned those stories pretty quick since their lives were on the line. Pretty easy to just blend back into Jewish society and not be chased around the middle east by both the Jews and the Romans. And the church kept growing in leaps and bounds even with such incredible tales. People must have had a reason to believe the stories or it would have just petered out and gone away.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              What makes you think the "streams" were not talking of the delta? It is made up of many streams. And many have dried up and others formed over the centuries. The silt eventually blocks some and new ones form.
                              The Delta floods every year, and is covered by water and swamps.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                Evidence?

                                It's not bare rock now, since it's underwater.
                                It wasn't bare rock while the city was there.
                                There are still columns on the seabed, suggesting it wasn't bare rock when (if) it apparently sank.

                                Do you have any evidence that it was ever bare rock used by fisherman other than the prophesy itself?
                                You're making me look up references! From Evidence that Demands a Verdict, 1979 edition:

                                Source: Archeology Underwater

                                Today hardly a single stone of Tyre remains intact... Tyre has become a place 'to dry fish nets' as the prophet had predicted.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Apparently the fishing nets were drying on the shore, after the sinking of Tyre.

                                Source: Your Guide to Lebanon

                                I went to visit Tyre on a summer's day. The town was sleepy, the harbor still. Fishing boats were putting out to sea. Pale turquoise fishing nets were drying on the shore.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                Last edited by lee_merrill; 01-05-2018, 06:32 PM.
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
                                14 responses
                                51 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                129 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                78 responses
                                414 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                303 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X