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  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    A google search turned up exactly one result, namely this discussion.
    Internet Infidels! Now that's been a while, I was looking for skeptic forums just the other day, since Internet Infidels has been out of business for a while.

    And my extra copy of Tyre Through the Ages came in, here is an extended quote:

    “The 'Sidonian' port facing north is still in use although it has been sanded up considerably. The 'Egyptian' port facing south is no more. Looking down into the water one can see a mass of granite columns and stone blocks strewn over the sea bottom. Until recently the ruins of Tyre above water were few. How was the ancient metropolis of Phoenicia so utterly demolished? Devastated by drawn-out sieges and earthquakes throughout her long history, Tyre from the 18th century onward has served as a ‘quarry’ for the whole coast. Her stones may be found as far away as Acre and Beirut.” (Nina Jidejian, "Tyre Through the Ages," Beirut: Dar El-Mashreq Publishers, 1969, xvi)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      Internet Infidels! Now that's been a while, I was looking for skeptic forums just the other day, since Internet Infidels has been out of business for a while.

      And my extra copy of Tyre Through the Ages came in, here is an extended quote:

      “The 'Sidonian' port facing north is still in use although it has been sanded up considerably. The 'Egyptian' port facing south is no more. Looking down into the water one can see a mass of granite columns and stone blocks strewn over the sea bottom. Until recently the ruins of Tyre above water were few. How was the ancient metropolis of Phoenicia so utterly demolished? Devastated by drawn-out sieges and earthquakes throughout her long history, Tyre from the 18th century onward has served as a ‘quarry’ for the whole coast. Her stones may be found as far away as Acre and Beirut.” (Nina Jidejian, "Tyre Through the Ages," Beirut: Dar El-Mashreq Publishers, 1969, xvi)

      Blessings,
      Lee
      The actual Maps provided tell a different story. The amount under water is only the Isle of Hercules on the Southern end of the Isle of Tyre where the major part of the walled city and Temple are located..
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        The actual Maps provided tell a different story. The amount under water is only the Isle of Hercules on the Southern end of the Isle of Tyre where the major part of the walled city and Temple are located..
        Here is a map that shows considerable extent to the north and south (scroll down to "Map of the siege of Tyre").

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          This was surprisingly easy to answer. A google search turned up exactly one result, namely this discussion. Some guy named "lee_merrill" talks about receiving and reading the book, and supplies some quotes from it. Gee, could that possibly be the same guy you're talking to here? It is manifestly not copied seventeenth hand, but quoted from the original. You'll have to buy/borrow a copy yourself if you want to check, since you manifestly don't trust Lee to quote it accurately.
          You're right, I don't trust Lee's quotes. Partly because I have read the thread you refer to.
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Internet Infidels! Now that's been a while, I was looking for skeptic forums just the other day, since Internet Infidels has been out of business for a while.

            And my extra copy of Tyre Through the Ages came in, here is an extended quote:

            “The 'Sidonian' port facing north is still in use although it has been sanded up considerably. The 'Egyptian' port facing south is no more. Looking down into the water one can see a mass of granite columns and stone blocks strewn over the sea bottom. Until recently the ruins of Tyre above water were few. How was the ancient metropolis of Phoenicia so utterly demolished? Devastated by drawn-out sieges and earthquakes throughout her long history, Tyre from the 18th century onward has served as a ‘quarry’ for the whole coast. Her stones may be found as far away as Acre and Beirut.” (Nina Jidejian, "Tyre Through the Ages," Beirut: Dar El-Mashreq Publishers, 1969, xvi)

            Blessings,
            Lee
            So the reason there are few ruins of Tyre above water is not because most of the ruins were below water, as you claimed previously,* but because the above water ruins have been scavenged for masonry over the centuries.

            OBP, do you see now why I don't trust Lee's quoting? He quoted the line about there being few above-water ruins (which are consistent with his contention that the island sank) but didn't quote the subsequent lines that discussed why (which refute it).

            Lee is quote-mining.

            *"If at one time the ruins above water were few, that implies the ruins below water were many."
            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Roy View Post
              Lee is quote-mining.
              This is easily seen by expanding Lee's earlier use of that quote:

              If it's substantially underwater I think we can say it has never been rebuilt.

              "Looking down into the water one can see a mass of granite columns and stone blocks strewn over the sea bottom. Until recently the ruins of Tyre above water were few. How was the ancient metropolis of Phoenicia so utterly demolished? Devastated by drawn-out sieges and earthquakes throughout her long history, Tyre from the 18th century onward has served as a ‘quarry’ for the whole coast. Her stones may be found as far away as Acre and Beirut.” (Nina Jidejian, "Tyre Through the Ages," Beirut: Dar El-Mashreq Publishers, 1969)


              Jidejian is not saying that the ruins of Tyre are substantially underwater, as Lee implied, she is saying that the ruins of Tyre are substantially scavenged for use elsewhere. A city being underwater might prevent it being rebuilt, but a city being scavenged for materials would not. Jidejian's text does not support the site of Tyre being substantially underwater, and you can not honestly use Jidejian to say that Tyre has never been rebuilt.
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                So the reason there are few ruins of Tyre above water is not because most of the ruins were below water, as you claimed previously,* but because the above water ruins have been scavenged for masonry over the centuries.

                OBP, do you see now why I don't trust Lee's quoting? He quoted the line about there being few above-water ruins (which are consistent with his contention that the island sank) but didn't quote the subsequent lines that discussed why (which refute it).

                Lee is quote-mining.

                *"If at one time the ruins above water were few, that implies the ruins below water were many."
                I don't like quote mining any more than you do. However, if you knew that quote mining was the issue, given your knowledge of the other thread, why did you toss in the other baseless charges as well?
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  I don't like quote mining any more than you do. However, if you knew that quote mining was the issue, given your knowledge of the other thread, why did you toss in the other baseless charges as well?
                  I didn't know about the other thread until after I posted.

                  I noticed that Lee was 'quoting' from he book he had just said he didn't have a copy of, and being aware of his past behaviour and those of YEC advocates in general, became suspicious. Note that Lee's follow-up remarks suggest he did not get the text from that thread, which still leaves open the question of where he got it.
                  Last edited by Roy; 01-31-2018, 12:53 PM.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    Jidejian is not saying that the ruins of Tyre are substantially underwater, as Lee implied, she is saying that the ruins of Tyre are substantially scavenged for use elsewhere. A city being underwater might prevent it being rebuilt, but a city being scavenged for materials would not. Jidejian's text does not support the site of Tyre being substantially underwater, and you can not honestly use Jidejian to say that Tyre has never been rebuilt.
                    Well, this depends on when it sank. Once it's underwater, of course, any quarrying will stop. Apparently it sank substantially at some time, see the attached map.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    Attached Files
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • In the interest of full disclosure, here is a quote that would tell against my view here: "The silted up harbour on the south side of the peninsula has been excavated by the French Institute for Archaeology in the Near East, but most of the remains of the Phoenician period still lie beneath the present town."

                      I do wonder though how they know the remains are there, if they're still beneath the town. But there are remains above ground (from the same site):

                      "In 1980, modern Tyre's impressive Roman and Phoenician remains prompted UNESCO to make the town one of its world heritage sites."

                      And remains in the sea, which are important to acknowledge as well.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • Emphasis mine:
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        In the interest of full disclosure, here is a quote that would tell against my view here: "The silted up harbour on the south side of the peninsula has been excavated by the French Institute for Archaeology in the Near East, but most of the remains of the Phoenician period still lie beneath the present town."
                        If the present town of Tyre is on top of most of the Phoenician remains, then clearly the modern town is in the same location as the ancient one, and, since it has the same name, Tyre has been rebuilt.
                        Last edited by Roy; 02-01-2018, 04:38 AM.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Jidejian is not saying that the ruins of Tyre are substantially underwater, as Lee implied, she is saying that the ruins of Tyre are substantially scavenged for use elsewhere. A city being underwater might prevent it being rebuilt, but a city being scavenged for materials would not. Jidejian's text does not support the site of Tyre being substantially underwater, and you can not honestly use Jidejian to say that Tyre has never been rebuilt.
                          Well, this depends on when it sank.
                          No, it doesn't.

                          Jidejian's text does not support the site of Tyre being substantially underwater, and you can not honestly use Jidejian to say that Tyre has never been rebuilt.

                          You were quote-mining.
                          Once it's underwater, of course, any quarrying will stop. Apparently it sank substantially at some time, see the attached map.
                          So you think the quarrying "from the 18th century onward" occurred before Tyre sank?
                          Last edited by Roy; 02-01-2018, 04:54 AM.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • The island of Tyre.

                            rr1006c.jpg

                            tyre-300x235.jpg

                            c3c7bab3a0a9f7448b69bfddee822f9f--lebanon-homeland.jpg

                            Now if you get a Google satellite view of the cost off where the land bridge to the island is. That is the site of the prophetic city of Tyre not rebuilt. Take a look.
                            Last edited by 37818; 02-01-2018, 11:06 AM.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              If the present town of Tyre is on top of most of the Phoenician remains, then clearly the modern town is in the same location as the ancient one, and, since it has the same name, Tyre has been rebuilt.
                              Well, I still wonder how they know the ruins are there if they remain buried.

                              Originally posted by Roy
                              Jidejian's text does not support the site of Tyre being substantially underwater, and you can not honestly use Jidejian to say that Tyre has never been rebuilt.
                              I believe it does, "until recently, the ruins of Tyre above water were few" implies a substantial part of Tyre is underwater. And you ignored the map I posted, showing a substantial extent to the north.

                              Originally posted by Roy
                              So you think the quarrying "from the 18th century onward" occurred before Tyre sank?
                              It could have, or maybe the quarrying was of Roman ruins, etc.

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              Last edited by lee_merrill; 02-01-2018, 01:44 PM.
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                The island of Tyre.

                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]26305[/ATTACH]

                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]26306[/ATTACH]

                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]26307[/ATTACH]

                                Now if you get a Google satellite view of the cost off where the land bridge to the island is. That is the site of the prophetic city of Tyre not rebuilt. Take a look.
                                Tyre was indeed rebuilt several times. Your photos document that by far most of the island of Tyre remains above water. The only parts of the Island of Tyre that are now under water are along parts pf the coast on the east side and low small Island of Hercules on the south. How do they know where the ancient city of Tyre is in the main island? Archaeology, which shows the major part of the ancient city and the Temple on the Island of Tyre which I referenced.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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