There is no evidence for a biblical jesus

[Challenger Grim]

Challenger Grim

Whether they are worthy of worship, perhaps?

Whether it makes a personal interest in human affairs, whether it is markedly more powerful than man.

Ok, so I can believe 100% that Jehovah exists, but if I believe He's either indifferent to us, or undeserving of worship, I'm an atheist.

Well Christianity has down played the pagan gods to demons, so there is precedent.

I am aware of theistic interpretations and how different cosmologies define their terms.

That's not what I asked, however. I asked how atheists would distinguish.

And how in the world does a religion provide a "precedent" for a non-religion? That's illogical nonsense.

A lot of atheists probably do believe in philosophical naturalism, but that does not indicate that the two terms have the same meaning.

All ducks have two legs, right? So anything with two legs must be a duck...

Except I had made it quite clear that a distinction must be present. Although "it has two legs" is more of a definition of "duck" than we've gotten on this thread on what a god is. Much less how one would distinguish between a deity and other supernatural beings.

It someone believed in ghosts, but was sure there was no God, would he be an agnostic? I do not think so, and yet that seems to be the logic here. According to RG's definition, such a person is an atheist, but he is not a materialist. How can that possibly be.

By the way, I am not a materialism, and I am an atheist.

Since you haven't defined your terms, your statement is pointless. See above.

[Rational Gaze]

I can believe in any number of supernatural beings and miracles and all that, just as long as I don't believe any of those supernatural beings are a creator God, and call myself an atheist.

Indeed. According to JimL, you can believe in angels, demons, ghosts, ancestral spirits, mind-body dualism, miracles, resurrection, reincarnation, magic, voodoo, wicca, astrology, tea-leaf reading, an afterlife, and any number of non-creator deities from whatever pagan/polytheistic religion you like. You can even believe in Satan. Just as long as you do not believe in a creator deity.

[lilpixieofterror]

Thank goodness for RG injecting some sanity. So atheism is a rejection of God or gods. It is not "a person that believes nature is all that exist" as lpot would have us believe, and it says nothing about believing in spirits or not.

If one doesn’t believe God, gods, or spirits exist, then they, by default, believe nature is all that exist. So have you tried wiping off your drool yet or do you not know how to think?

[lilpixieofterror]

By the way, I am not a materialism, and I am an atheist.

Is nature the only thing that exist or do other things, that are not nature (IE Supernatural elements) exist?

[Sparko]

Sparko

I think YHWH is a man-made term... In fact, all these words we are using were devised by man. Why is that a problem? Can you only worship something that cannot be named (he who cannot be named, is that Voldemort)?

If your position is that YHWH is not a god, and that you do not believe in any god, then yes, you are an atheist. Really, how hard is this?

derp. Way to go Pixie. You have watered down the term "atheist" to the point that everyone is an atheist. Nice job. Now you can claim that 100% of the world's population are atheists.

[SarahB]

It does, you just don't like the answer and I would suggest that you learn how the forum software works because this post of yours is a mess and shows that you seem to be unable to do a pretty simple task, so why should I seriously believe you can do something more complex, like understand my answer when you can’t even figure out how the tags work? Getting on topic though, your question was answered, what the dictionary says isn't all the story and there is more to atheism then a simple, one sentence definition and the ‘root word’, do I need to say that a few more times, in a bunch of different ways, before you understand that?

Do you seriously believe that that smug condescension should not be turned around on you, when you are incapable of learning the then/than distinction or how to pluralize atheist?

I guess stupidity of this type is something common with you and you need things described several times, before you grasp it or are you saying that as an atheist, you lack morality or has the definition of atheism changed from its roots? Which actually comes from the ancient era and was used, by the Romans, to describe Christians, I guess Christians are now atheist, using your loose definitions and poor defining of terms and history?

Not to mention syntax and punctuation.

140 IQ? Really???

You should reconsider the "Insults for Christ" paradigm; it's just not working out very well for you.

Good job on the possessive "its".

[seanD]

I honestly wasn't aware that grammar was associated with an IQ score. That's a new one on me.

[The Pixie]

Challenger Grim

Ok, so I can believe 100% that Jehovah exists, but if I believe He's either indifferent to us, or undeserving of worship, I'm an atheist.

I am putting these things up as suggests of what would count as a god. If you believe something called Jehovah, but this entity has no interest in mankind, would you call it a god? I do not think I would, but I am open on the subject.

And yes, you can be sure this entity exists, and still be an atheist, because this hypothetical Jehovah is not a god.

I am aware of theistic interpretations and how different cosmologies define their terms.

That's not what I asked, however. I asked how atheists would distinguish.

Sure, and I answered that.

And how in the world does a religion provide a "precedent" for a non-religion? That's illogical nonsense.

A religion? A see it as one group of people providing a precent for another.

Since you haven't defined your terms, your statement is pointless. See above.

Atheist: someone who believes (perhaps tentatively) that there is no God or gods
Materialist: someone who belives (perhaps tentatively) matter is the basis of everything, that all that is not matter supervenes on matter
Naturalist: someone who believes (perhaps tentatively) that there is no supernatural
Supernatural: that which operates outside the laws of nature

Hope this helps.

[The Pixie]

If one doesn’t believe God, gods, or spirits exist, then they, by default, believe nature is all that exist.

Are those the only possible supernatural entities, influences or forces that can possibly exist? If I may borrow from the ever-helpful RG, what of:

angels, demons, ghosts, ancestral spirits, mind-body dualism, miracles, resurrection, reincarnation, magic, voodoo, wicca, astrology, tea-leaf reading, an afterlife

Okay, a couple are spirits, but you get the idea.

If one doesn’t believe God, gods, or spirits exist, then they, by default, believe nature is all that exist.

What? Two errors in just one sentence. way to go, lpot.

See, atheism is not a rejection of the existence of spirits. Here, I will copy in RG's definition, as you seem to have forgotten it already.

atheism ('ei0i,izem) n rejection of belief in God or gods [c16 from French athéisme, from Greek atheos godless, from A-1 + theos god] > 'atheist n, adj > ,athe'istic or ,athe'istical adj > ,atheistically adv

See? Atheism is a rejection of God and gods. Not spirits.

So even ignoring all those things RG provided in the post before yours, you still got it wrong just on the things you managed to think of on your own.

Atheists can believe in spirits and still be atheists.

So have you tried wiping off your drool yet or do you not know how to think?

Ah, irony.

Is nature the only thing that exist or do other things, that are not nature (IE Supernatural elements) exist?

Are you asking for my opinion? I think only nature exists - which makes me a naturalist. I do not think everything supervenes on matter, so I am not a materialist.

[The Pixie]

derp. Way to go Pixie. You have watered down the term "atheist" to the point that everyone is an atheist. Nice job. Now you can claim that 100% of the world's population are atheists.

And you have declared that YHWH, the entity you purport to worship, is not a god. Way to go indeed.

[Sparko]

And you have declared that YHWH, the entity you purport to worship, is not a god. Way to go indeed.

I just said I don't believe in the term "God"

So to me there are no "gods" since the term is meaningless. Might as well believe in "scrumshimsteiots"

[lilpixieofterror]

Are those the only possible supernatural entities, influences or forces that can possibly exist? If I may borrow from the ever-helpful RG, what of:

angels, demons, ghosts, ancestral spirits, mind-body dualism, miracles, resurrection, reincarnation, magic, voodoo, wicca, astrology, tea-leaf reading, an afterlife

Okay, a couple are spirits, but you get the idea.

That doesn’t answer the question Pixie, do you believe any of these things, happen in reality or not?

What? Two errors in just one sentence. way to go, lpot.

This should be entertaining.

See, atheism is not a rejection of the existence of spirits. Here, I will copy in RG's definition, as you seem to have forgotten it already.

atheism ('ei0i,izem) n rejection of belief in God or gods [c16 from French athéisme, from Greek atheos godless, from A-1 + theos god] > 'atheist n, adj > ,athe'istic or ,athe'istical adj > ,atheistically adv

See? Atheism is a rejection of God and gods. Not spirits.

Might want to let your fellow atheist know that one because here I was, hearing them saying that these spirits didn’t exist either… Perhaps you atheist should go and figure out what an atheist is and then come back and try to define because I somehow doubt that a Wiccan would call themselves an atheist.

So even ignoring all those things RG provided in the post before yours, you still got it wrong just on the things you managed to think of on your own.

Do you read because I remember specifically saying that a dictionary definition was not enough to define what a belief system was all about or did you simply skip over what I said because you just want to include anybody that isn’t a Christian, Muslim, or Jew as an ‘atheist’ so you can boost your own numbers, even when I haven’t known any of these people to describe themselves as atheist and find the most popular atheist and atheist groups out there continue to deny that God, gods, and spirits exist.

Atheists can believe in spirits and still be atheists.

Really? I wonder what The American Atheist have to say about what an atheist is:

Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.
http://www.atheists.org/atheism

How about Wiki:

Atheists tend to be skeptical of supernatural claims, citing a lack of empirical evidence. Rationales for not believing in any deity include the problem of evil, the argument from inconsistent revelations, and the argument from nonbelief. Other arguments for atheism range from the philosophical to the social to the historical. Although some atheists have adopted secular philosophies,[9][10] there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.[11] Many atheists hold that atheism is a more parsimonious worldview than theism, and therefore the burden of proof lies not on the atheist to disprove the existence of God, but on the theist to provide a rationale for theism.[12]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Perhaps you should go and let your fellow atheist know that atheist can believe in the supernatural and see how accepted they are of the idea. I would love to watch your thread, in Naturalism, as you are laughed at by your fellow skeptics. I hate to break this to you, but a broad definition of atheist is just a reject of a belief of a deity of some type, but I really haven’t known an atheist like that and I continue to find most atheist, reject ghost, angels, demons, etc as well as the idea of God. Perhaps you should go and argue with them about this?

Ah, irony.

Nah because I got my definition of atheism, from atheist themselves or do you want to go and argue with your fellow atheist about it? I didn’t write the definition that the American atheist had, atheist did. I didn’t write the Wiki article, most likely, it was also written by atheist. Care to try this again or should I just ignore evidence that disagrees with you because you want the numbers of atheist to be boosted?

Are you asking for my opinion? I think only nature exists - which makes me a naturalist. I do not think everything supervenes on matter, so I am not a materialist.

Do you know what the philosophy of materialism is the idea that nature is the only thing that exist, right? But don’t take my word for it, let me see what Wiki says:

In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter or energy; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions. In other words, matter is the only substance, and reality is identical with the actually occurring states of energy and matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

I know dictionaries are not the best places to get information on complex topics like this, but there is this too:

a : a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/materialism

Now what does it say about naturalism:

: a theory denying that an event or object has a supernatural significance; specifically : the doctrine that scientific laws are adequate to account for all phenomena
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/naturalism

Sounds like they are pretty much the same thing. Care to try this again Pixie or do you like sounding like you don’t understand your own belief system or common definitions?

[Rational Gaze]

I like how The Pixie keeps embracing the reductio ad absurdum of his position. It's always funny when people refute their own ideas like that.

[Doug Shaver]

every atheist group I know defines an atheist as a person that believes nature is all that exist.

None of the atheist groups I know would accept that definition. They might agree that it is characteristic of atheists, but they would not consider it definitive of them. It is a vital distinction. Bearing live young is characteristic of mammals, but it is not definitive, because there are mammals that don't bear live young.

If you don't believe in a God, in the theist sense, but still believe there is something that isn't nature, how can you be an atheist?

I can be an atheist by refusing to affirm that whatever is not natural must be a god. In that respect I'm no different from Christians. Many Christians believe in angels. Angels are not natural, and they are not gods, either. Christians must agree, then, that some non-natural things are not gods.

There are words to describe views that are neither, such as pantheist or spiritualist. These people are not 'atheist' by the most accepted definition out there nor are they theist by the most accepted definition out there. They are something else.

The atheists I know are of two minds about pantheists. Some say they are theists. The others say they're atheists who just don't have the guts to admit it.

It may well be the average atheist or theist considers the average pantheist or spiritualist to be "not one of us." And if that is so, then since words are defined by usage, you are correct to that extent. This is a case in which I would argue that usage ought to change. If we have gotten to the point where someone can say sincerely, "I don't believe in God" and someone else can say "Even so, you are no atheist," then our language has gotten way too sloppy to allow effective communication.

[The Pixie]

I just said I don't believe in the term "God"

So to me there are no "gods" since the term is meaningless. Might as well believe in "scrumshimsteiots"

So therefore if atheist is defined as someone who rejects God or gods then that too becomes meaningless, right?