There is no evidence for a biblical jesus

[Rational Gaze]

Please remember there are no eye witness accounts

Asserted, but not shown. Whereas, there is a mother-lode of evidence that the Gospels are based on eyewitness testimony.

[Raphael]

Columella - Columella wrote about trees and agriculture. No reason to mention Jesus.

That one has always amused me. It would be as ridiculous as someone in circa 4000AD saying that because my father's (who campaigned against Apartheid policies when they were introduced in SA, and was investigated because his closest mate was an ANC supporter) PhD thesis in Agricultural Economics (specifically timber harvesting and extraction methods, completed in the early 80's) doesn't mention Nelson Mandela, that a literal Nelson Mandela, as recorded in his authorised biography never existed.

[MWM958]

I'm willing to bet a crap lode of money that bertatberts thinks Gamaliel never existed.

Do you like read any of the relevant scholarship on like...anything?

[37818]

There is no evidence for a biblical jesus
<snip>

So, of the NT authors we find -
* Paul only met Jesus in a VISION,

<snip>

So there you have it.
.

Saul's vision involved others. They saw the light, were knocked to the ground with Saul, they heard the voice. But did not see Jesus, were not blinded, nor did they understand what was said to Saul. They are the ones who took then blinded Saul to the church members per Saul's instructions. Some vision.

[bertatberts]

Can you cite a single contemporaneous record of Alexander of the Great?

There are a few inscriptions and fragments but none worthy as to actually be contemporary written evidence, however there are Greek, Latin and oriental documents, that mention him by name, sadly after the fact, there are coins, and other relics with inscriptions of him.
Nothing even resembling this kind of evidence can be found for a biblical jesus.

How about Socrates,

contemporaneous evidence for Socrates can be found in he dialogues of Plato and in the works of Aristophanes and Xenophon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...ogues_of_Plato
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristophanes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophon

Gamaliel the Elder,

There is named extra-biblical evidence in the autobiography of Titus Flavius Josephus, (yes the same author of the TF, but the TF is the only one that's suspect, and this is because of his other writings. and how they are worded.) and the Talmud, but no contemporary evidence.
http://www.davemckay.co.uk/philosoph...=autobiography

Hillel

Being the Grandfather of Gamaliel, he could have existed but there are no contemporaneous or extra-biblical evidence for him, so we will just have assume the information in the bible is correct in this instance, and we do know that some historical evidence is.

or Shammai?

Though he is written as a contemporary of Hillel, there is no extra-biblical or contemporaneous evidence for his existence, that's not to say he didn't exist. As I've stated before a jesus person may have existed, that cannot be argued, but a biblical jesus can it has no evidence, extra-biblical or contemporaneous at all.

Can you even cite a single contemporary account of the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius?

Pliny the younger wrote of it because of the loss of his uncle Pliny the elder, his uncle was killed at the time trying to rescue people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger.

Asserted, but not shown. Whereas, there is a mother-lode of evidence that the Gospels are based on eyewitness testimony.

Where!

[gharfish]

.........It took me a long time to compile, I've added to it over the years.

.........

This must mean alot to you.


>

[Rational Gaze]

There are a few inscriptions and fragments but none worthy as to actually be contemporary written evidence, however there are Greek, Latin and oriental documents, that mention him by name, sadly after the fact, there are coins, and other relics with inscriptions of him.

The earliest information we have on Alexander the Great comes from the 17h book of Diodorus Siculus' Bibliotheca Historica written in the 1st century BC. Followed by a ten book biography of Alexander titled Historiae Alexandri Magni written in the 1st century AD by Quintus Curtius Rufus. This is followed by two accounts written in the 2nd century AD, Anabsis Alexandri written by Arrian and Life of Alexander by Plutarch. Lastly, we have a highly compresssed biography written sometime between the 2ns to 3rd centuries AD, by a Roman historian named Justin. All of the date centuries after Alexander's lifetime, therefore, according to your logic, he did not exist.

Nothing even resembling this kind of evidence can be found for a biblical jesus.

Incorrect. As has been demonstrated, there are multiple extra-biblical non-Christian attestations to the existence of Jesus. Your delusions do not count as evidence against this proven fact.

contemporaneous evidence for Socrates can be found in he dialogues of Plato and in the works of Aristophanes and Xenophon.

Incorrect. These were all written AFTER Socrates supposed lifetime, thus, according to your logic, he did not exist.

There is named extra-biblical evidence in the autobiography of Titus Flavius Josephus, and the Talmud, but no contemporary evidence.

Thus, according to your logic, he did not exist, despite the fact that historians conclude otherwise.

(yes the same author of the TF, but the TF is the only one that's suspect, and this is because of his other writings. and how they are worded.)

Special pleading.

Being the Grandfather of Gamaliel, he could have existed but there are no contemporaneous or extra-biblical evidence for him, so we will just have assume the information in the bible is correct in this instance, and we do know that some historical evidence is. Though he is written as a contemporary of Hillel, there is no extra-biblical or contemporaneous evidence for his existence, that's not to say he didn't exist.

By your logic, he did not exist. Thus, your false claims that Jesus did not exist are merely a case of special pleading.

As I've stated before a jesus person may have existed, that cannot be argued, but a biblical jesus can it has no evidence, extra-biblical or contemporaneous at all.

Asserted, but not shown.

Pliny the younger wrote of it because of the loss of his uncle Pliny the elder, his uncle was killed at the time trying to rescue people.

Sorry son, but this account was not written until decades after the event in question.

Where!

It is readily available, but you are probably too steeped in ignorance and too intoxicated in your myths to accept it.

[bertatberts]

This must mean a lot to you.

I'm a humanist, I've seen what irrational belief does to the mind, how it cause all sorts of horrors,
Theists are victims of this, lets call it a virus. They do the most horrible things, because of it, all under the belief that they are doing them for righteous reasons.
If one person in a thousand realises that it is irrational, and take a more reasoned path. I've saved a human life, so yes it means a lot.

[Rational Gaze]

I'm a humanist, I've seen what irrational belief does to the mind, how it cause all sorts of horrors,
Theists are victims of this, lets call it a virus. They do the most horrible things, because of it, all under the belief that they are doing them for righteous reasons. If one person in a thousand realises that it is irrational, and take a more reasoned path. I've saved a human life, so yes it means a lot.

In other words, you are a deluded, grade a whackamole who lets your agenda drive the facts, rather than the other way round. I am glad we cleared that up. Now we know that any attempt at trying to engage you in discussion is fruitless, as you do not have the capacity for rational thought.

[Challenger Grim]

I'm a humanist, I've seen what irrational belief does to the mind, how it cause all sorts of horrors,

And you've certainly demonstrated that for us, haven't you.

[nickcopernicus]

Denying the existence of Jesus as a historical figure is like denying the holocaust, denying the moon landings took place, asserting the world to be flat, asserting that the sun goes around the earth, claiming the world is but 6,000 years old, or that Francis Bacon wrote the works of Shakespeare.

Nick:
So we have pictures of Jesus, living witnesses that saw him, and pieces of his hair?

The evidence that Jesus existed isn't all that strong. It's certainly strong enough to convince me he existed, but don't go spouting off nonsense like the above. It makes you look like an idiot.

Cheers,

Nick

[Cybelle Hawke]

TO BE the Son of God (and thus divine), it is enough His Father stating so!

So where is your evidence that His Father is denying this?

[bertatberts]

The earliest information we have on Alexander the Great comes from the 17h book of Diodorus Siculus' Bibliotheca Historica written in the 1st century BC. Followed by a ten book biography of Alexander titled Historiae Alexandri Magni written in the 1st century AD by Quintus Curtius Rufus. This is followed by two accounts written in the 2nd century AD, Anabsis Alexandri written by Arrian and Life of Alexander by Plutarch. Lastly, we have a highly compresssed biography written sometime between the 2ns to 3rd centuries AD, by a Roman historian named Justin. All of the date centuries after Alexander's lifetime, therefore, according to your logic, he did not exist.

No! Because the is a myriad of other evidence, Coins and other relics. Huge fail on your part.

Incorrect. As has been demonstrated, there are multiple extra-biblical non-Christian attestations to the existence of Jesus. Your delusions do not count as evidence against this proven fact.

Then cite some, lol.

Incorrect. These were all written AFTER Socrates supposed lifetime, thus, according to your logic, he did not exist.

But he did because they were written by people who knew him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...ogues_of_Plato
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristophanes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophon

Thus, according to your logic, he did not exist, despite the fact that historians conclude otherwise.

Where did I say Gamaliel didn't exist.

]Special pleading.

If you like. However Josephus has written extensive Jewish and Roman histories, However only the TF has been marked as suspect. So if you want to call it special pleading go ahead.

By your logic, he did not exist.

In this case there isn't a lot of evidence for Hillel's existence, however as I said he is named in this one source the bible as the grandfather of Gamaliel, so as there is a little extra-biblical evidence for Gamaliel, we can assume the same for Hillel.

Thus, your false claims that Jesus did not exist are merely a case of special pleading.

How so!

Asserted, but not shown.

Lol.

Sorry son, but this account was not written until decades after the event in question.

Yes by an eye witness.

It is readily available, but you are probably too steeped in ignorance and too intoxicated in your myths to accept it.

Then cite some extra-biblical contemporaneous sources that were written at the time.

I'm decide from now on to refer to you as "Irrational Daze".
I think it's much more apt a title.

[Darth Ovious]

I'm a humanist, I've seen what irrational belief does to the mind, how it cause all sorts of horrors,
Theists are victims of this, lets call it a virus. They do the most horrible things, because of it, all under the belief that they are doing them for righteous reasons.
If one person in a thousand realises that it is irrational, and take a more reasoned path. I've saved a human life, so yes it means a lot.

I take it you haven't heard of the 100 million people that communist atheism disposed of then?

[bertatberts]

In other words, you are a deluded, grade a whackamole who lets your agenda drive the facts, rather than the other way round.

The fact that people are killed by theist nuts drives my agenda.