Eastern Views of the Cross

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I also think it might be helpful for me to look at significant EOC works on the Eucharist
since it is so closely tied to the cross. Would you recommend the dogmatics you cited,
something liturgy-related or something else?

Christ was crucified once, for all, upon the Cross...
The Eucharist re-presents that sacrifice each time it is consecrated...
And the broken Body and spilled Blood of our Risen Lord,
The Holy Covenant of His Body and Blood...
Is re-consecrated that we who are members of His Body on earth
May partake of it and have His Life in us...

I have never heard an Orthodox Theologian speak of the "work" that Christ "accomplished" on the Cross...
The essence of the Cross that He exemplified was His total obedience to the Father...
All that he said, and all that He did, was from the Father...
Of Himself He did nothing...
If we are to follow Christ, we must do all things by obedience...
THAT is the life of the Cross...

So I would not suggest some works on the Eucharist because of its relationship to the Cross of Christ...
But instead, I would suggest that you listen to Fr. Thomas Hopko, who is the Dean Emeritus of St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary
And he is a marvelous lecturer who has donee some 187 podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio - If you scroll through and see one that
catches your eye, and listen to it, you will see what I mean, and I think you might find one or two that address the issues you care about.

www.http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko

They are all free, and since he is a priest, they are both pastoral and scholarly...

About a hundred twenty hours or so...

He is as well, a buoyant and genuinely joyful soul...

Arsenios

[mitzi]

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm looking for something a little more substantial than a self-published book which seems intent on knocking down straw men...

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post because:
1. I don't think this is the correct section of the forum to actually debate the issue. I posted here as a request for resources from ecclesiological sources with which I'm not familiar.
2. My current area of inquiry is into what the eastern churches do believe about the atonement; not their critique of other models.
3. If penal substitution posited the things Renault claims, I'd disagree with it too.

In Christ,
Dave

Hi David;

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm looking for something a little more substantial than a self-published book which seems intent on knocking down straw men...

Not a problem - you've given some thoughts about this particular author and its not a recommendation - so that's fine. However, you do have one Eastern Orthodox on the board - thread - and I would imagine that his opinion would count, in regards to your question and the reading material that he might suggest. David, as any member of a congregation - Orthodox, and their reflection on a particular subject should coincide with their church's view, this is what upholds the values.

As asking this same type of question onto a Jewish board (for example: "Do reform Jews believe that the Torah was written by people or was the Torah the literal word of God - even this "type" of question would reflect on how they view the Christian bible.) - Would then someone recommend some good books to read on that particular subject, that being from a Jewish (Orthodox) person or people? an endorsement (from some who might be with the reform movement might). I mean what kind of an answer would you expect back? - or even reading material or thoughts. Although on the subject, "One People, Two Worlds: A Reform Rabbi and an Orthodox Rabbi Explore the Issues That Divide." Again, and understand the word/subject, would be about the divine authentication of God's word or about his "salvation" for all. Different views accordingly...all together. I know there have been some who have given you some information - so hey, go with it!

But if Eastern Orthodox don't support the view - ??? then....

Blessing right back
Mitzi

[DaveKicks]

I have never heard an Orthodox Theologian speak of the "work" that Christ "accomplished" on the Cross...
The essence of the Cross that He exemplified was His total obedience to the Father...
All that he said, and all that He did, was from the Father...
Of Himself He did nothing...
If we are to follow Christ, we must do all things by obedience...
THAT is the life of the Cross...
So I would not suggest some works on the Eucharist because of its relationship to the Cross of Christ...

I think you misunderstood my question: When I said "significant EOC works regarding the Eucharist" I meant "significant writings" not "significant actions."

But instead, I would suggest that you listen to Fr. Thomas Hopko, who is the Dean Emeritus of St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary
And he is a marvelous lecturer who has donee some 187 podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio - If you scroll through and see one that
catches your eye, and listen to it, you will see what I mean, and I think you might find one or two that address the issues you care about.

www.http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko

They are all free, and since he is a priest, they are both pastoral and scholarly...

Many thanks! I'll definitely take a look!
_____________

As asking this same type of question onto a Jewish board (for example: "Do reform Jews believe that the Torah was written by people or was the Torah the literal word of God - even this "type" of question would reflect on how they view the Christian bible.) - Would then someone recommend some good books to read on that particular subject, that being from a Jewish (Orthodox) person or people? an endorsement (from some who might be with the reform movement might). I mean what kind of an answer would you expect back? - or even reading material or thoughts.

If I asked anyone what they believe I'd expect back an answer with a resource documenting what they believe. I'd be surprised if they replied with a resource that attempts (very poorly) to rebut a position they don't believe.

In Christ,
Dave

[mitzi]

I think you misunderstood my question: When I said "significant EOC works regarding the Eucharist" I meant "significant writings" not "significant actions."


Many thanks! I'll definitely take a look!
_____________


If I asked anyone what they believe I'd expect back an answer with a resource documenting what they believe. I'd be surprised if they replied with a resource that attempts (very poorly) to rebut a position they don't believe.

In Christ,
Dave

If I asked anyone what they believe I'd expect back an answer with a resource documenting what they believe. I'd be surprised if they replied with a resource that attempts (very poorly) to rebut a position they don't believe.

Hi David;

You mean about reform - and what one believes or understands about a particular subject of salvation? - correct? What one believes is what one understands truthfully, that being - the Spirit who guides and gives life through God's words (John 5:39) - the scripture and the validation of their words had given a testimony to the Messiah and also to the Son - if, for example - and using the last example, and being the same type of question onto a Jewish board (for example: "Do reform Jews believe that the Torah was written by people or was the Torah the literal word of God - even this "type" of question would reflect on how they view the Christian bible.) - Would then someone recommend some good books to read on that particular subject, that being from a Jewish (Orthodox) person or people? an endorsement (from some who might be with the reform movement might).

The church and their community of members who live faithfully accordingly toward Christ's words will know what they believe in and also will grow in understanding - as would any followers of Christ or any new arrival to Christ because with scripture we quote "His" words to begin with. If a member or members of either the Eastern or the Western community happens to express their views or not and yet, can not or can (either way) back up those views with documentation - would that mean that they have greater understanding to the unity of Christ with God - I haven't seen that documentation (and between among Trinitarian) as of yet - and you're searching for an explanation on "Penal substitution view" - ?? . You don't have to be a scholar to believe - but you can be lead to become a scholar with Christ, as with Moses or the great Apostles. We draw "all" upon the strength of Christ as each Apostle had done - that is another miracle that Christ made visible. These apostles, like Moses, were not exactly - scholarly, they were fisherman. Do you think, at that moment when Christ came, that any of them could back up their belief and faith with documentation about God.

The one's I admire the most - are the ones' (scholarly nor not) who live accordingly - who don't doubt God's presents working in their lives. Most people are so blessed that it takes your breath away and they don't express a word; they just live it!

"1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me"

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I think you misunderstood my question:
When I said "significant EOC works regarding the Eucharist"
I meant "significant writings" not "significant actions."

What you are approaching, Dave, is a mind-set, a phronema, a whole way of experiencing this life,
that is very different from what you are accustomed to exercising...

It is a mind that is acquired over time in discipleship in Christ...
Paul wrote: "We have the mind of Christ."
He was not describing doctrines and ideas, but a condition of the heart,
because the term he used for mind was nous, not dianoia...
In today's world, we no longer even have a word for nous...
The Church calls it the "eye of the heart"
It is the "director of thoughts"
It is not the thoughts themselves...
Indeed, it is the thoughts themselves that SCATTER the nous...
And it is the "gathering of the dispersed" that consecrates the heart
Where every thought is taken captive...
And the whole of our attention
Is on God alone...

You see, the whole of the Service of the Eucharist, the Divine Liturgy,
Is directed toward our entry into the Presence of God
And indeed, His entry into us
As we eat His Body and drink His Blood unto Communion...
We gather in this Holy Service, and partake of Him
And then we go forth in peace, "according to Thy Word..."

So you can see that we gather together in our persons in the Service,
And gather therein all our thoughts unto God,
Receive Holy Communion,
And go forth back into the world
In a renewal of mind and heart...
In our mental lives, and in our persons...
To gather and go forth, again and again...

This is our Life in Christ...

We have been doing this since the time of the Apostles...

It is the center of our worship, from which all else is made possible...

It is learned in the doing of it...

There are not a whole lot of writings about it...

There are some...

Many thanks! I'll definitely take a look!

You need to click that link again to get to the podcasts...

Please let me know what you think, for Fr. John conveys the phronema of the Church [the Mind of Christ]
in a way that intellectual types [like me!] can relate to easily...
The intellectual realm of ideas is a construction that not all the Orthodox make...
Not everyone is a brain...
Some of us are toe-nails!
And, I should add, no less for that fact...

Some of our greatest saints are illiterate, and wondrous miracle workers...

Arsenios

[Maxentius]

The Apostles, quiting Christ himself, wrote that communion is for the forgiveness of sins. We approach the alter in humility to receive what Christ won for us on the cross. Since those are Jesus' own words, I think we should accept them as they are and not get overly theological to explain what is a simple concept: Communion is a way for us to receive what Christ win for us on the cross.

The mind of Christ is the renewed nous we receive when we are given the gift of faith.

What you are approaching, Dave, is a mind-set, a phronema, a whole way of experiencing this life,
that is very different from what you are accustomed to exercising...

It is a mind that is acquired over time in discipleship in Christ...
Paul wrote: "We have the mind of Christ."
He was not describing doctrines and ideas, but a condition of the heart,
because the term he used for mind was nous, not dianoia...
In today's world, we no longer even have a word for nous...
The Church calls it the "eye of the heart"
It is the "director of thoughts"
It is not the thoughts themselves...
Indeed, it is the thoughts themselves that SCATTER the nous...
And it is the "gathering of the dispersed" that consecrates the heart
Where every thought is taken captive...
And the whole of our attention
Is on God alone...

You see, the whole of the Service of the Eucharist, the Divine Liturgy,
Is directed toward our entry into the Presence of God
And indeed, His entry into us
As we eat His Body and drink His Blood unto Communion...
We gather in this Holy Service, and partake of Him
And then we go forth in peace, "according to Thy Word..."

So you can see that we gather together in our persons in the Service,
And gather therein all our thoughts unto God,
Receive Holy Communion,
And go forth back into the world
In a renewal of mind and heart...
In our mental lives, and in our persons...
To gather and go forth, again and again...

This is our Life in Christ...

We have been doing this since the time of the Apostles...

It is the center of our worship, from which all else is made possible...

It is learned in the doing of it...

There are not a whole lot of writings about it...

There are some...



You need to click that link again to get to the podcasts...

Please let me know what you think, for Fr. John conveys the phronema of the Church [the Mind of Christ]
in a way that intellectual types [like me!] can relate to easily...
The intellectual realm of ideas is a construction that not all the Orthodox make...
Not everyone is a brain...
Some of us are toe-nails!
And, I should add, no less for that fact...

Some of our greatest saints are illiterate, and wondrous miracle workers...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

The Apostles, quiting Christ himself, wrote that communion is for the forgiveness of sins.

Indeed, and Christ Himself said that "If ye do not eat My Flesh and drink My Blood, you have no life in you..." And He also said: "Take, Eat... This is My Blood of the New Covenant..."

We approach the alter in humility to receive what Christ won for us on the cross.

He overcame death... He has always been forgiving of our sins... But we are filled with death in Adam...

Since those are Jesus' own words, I think we should accept them as they are and not get overly theological to explain what is a simple concept:

The WORK Christ did on the Cross was the overcoming of death, not the forgiveness of sins...

Communion is a way for us to receive what Christ win for us on the cross.

He won victory over death...

The mind of Christ is the renewed nous we receive when we are given the gift of faith.

Orthodoxy holds it to be far more than this...

David the Psalmist had renewal of the nous...

To have the mind of Christ is to have purity of heart...

Arsenios

[DaveKicks]

The WORK Christ did on the Cross was the overcoming of death, not the forgiveness of sins...

He won victory over death...

George,
I don't want to get into the weeds here because the specifics of the theology aren't the topic of this thread. However, I'm uncomfortable about how you position yourself. You seem to be providing a false dichotomy here... why do you think Jesus only accomplished one thing on the cross?

I believe that he overcame death for us because of the very same Scriptures that persuade you. But I can't help but see that Scripture also points to something else - that he died to forgive us for our sins also: Matt 26:28, Heb 9:22, etc

In short, I'd warn you against thinking that Jesus could only have accomplished one thing on the cross.

In Christ,
Dave

PS - I'd also recommend you not call other models "demonic" simply because you disagree as you did in your first post of this thread. Especially when your position directly contradicts Scripture. (Yes we are naturally God's enemies and yes Christ's death did directly combat that: Rom 5:10)

[Rdr. Arsenios]

George,
I don't want to get into the weeds here because the specifics of the theology aren't the topic of this thread. However, I'm uncomfortable about how you position yourself. You seem to be providing a false dichotomy here... why do you think Jesus only accomplished one thing on the cross?

I believe that he overcame death for us because of the very same Scriptures that persuade you. But I can't help but see that Scripture also points to something else - that he died to forgive us for our sins also: Matt 26:28, Heb 9:22, etc

In short, I'd warn you against thinking that Jesus could only have accomplished one thing on the cross.

In Christ,
Dave

I agree - Many things were accomplished on the Cross, and I was wrong - The forgiveness of sins was among them...

Forgive me...

PS - I'd also recommend you not call other models "demonic" simply because you disagree as you did in your first post of this thread. Especially when your position directly contradicts Scripture. (Yes we are naturally God's enemies and yes Christ's death did directly combat that: Rom 5:10)

Penal substitution is another matter, for it makes of God a Being Who MUST find someone to punish enough to satisfy His greatly offended ANGER at Adam's sin, and ONLY Christ can be punished enough to satisfy His wrath, because of His [Christ's] divine nature...

Christ's ascent onto the Cross is not done as a substitute for our ascent, but as a model for us to share in by following Him... Christ suffered to sanctify our suffering in Him, not to satisfy God's wrath... We are all, we who are Christians, to CO-SUFFER with Christ, for the sake of those who are fallen... His death was not so that we not suffer, but that in suffering, we should ascend to the Glory of God... God is simply NOT a God of Anger seeking a victim who has done no wrong, which is Christ... Christ's death on the Cross OVERCAME death, and in the same manner, His suffering overcame suffering, and we who are His followers also are to suffer and die for the sins of the world...

Describing God as needing a victim on whom to pour out His wrath over the offence of Adams Sin is not a Christian understanding...

Yet I was wrong to describe the penal-substitutionary model as demonic, because to do so is offensive to sincere people who believe it wrongly, but are not themselves demonic...

Please forgive me...

I will hold off posting for awhile - I am too easily stepping in potholes of late...

Max, will you also forgive me?

Arsenios

[mitzi]

George,
I don't want to get into the weeds here because the specifics of the theology aren't the topic of this thread. However, I'm uncomfortable about how you position yourself. You seem to be providing a false dichotomy here... why do you think Jesus only accomplished one thing on the cross?

I believe that he overcame death for us because of the very same Scriptures that persuade you. But I can't help but see that Scripture also points to something else - that he died to forgive us for our sins also: Matt 26:28, Heb 9:22, etc

In short, I'd warn you against thinking that Jesus could only have accomplished one thing on the cross.

In Christ,
Dave

PS - I'd also recommend you not call other models "demonic" simply because you disagree as you did in your first post of this thread. Especially when your position directly contradicts Scripture. (Yes we are naturally God's enemies and yes Christ's death did directly combat that: Rom 5:10)

In short, I'd warn you against thinking that Jesus could only have accomplished one thing on the cross.

Hi David;

and I don't mean to step over anyone, but!

Arsenios - I know that you can remember this....

"In the Anaphora of Saint James of Jerusalem, the deacons sing the following metrical homily attributed to Saint James of Serugh during the closing acts of the liturgy when, after communion and before departing, the faithful receive a last blessing by kissing the Gospel book and eating a piece of blessed bread:

From on high did power descent to us, from a womb did hope shine out for us, from the grave salvation appeared for us, and on the right hand the King sits for us; blessed in His Glory!... From on high He came down as Lord, from the womb He came forth as a servant, death knelt before Him in Sheol, and life worshiped Him in His Resurrection. Blessed is His victory!...His birth gives us purification, His baptism gives us forgiveness, His death is life to us, His ascension is our exaltation. How should we thank him!...Whom have, Lord, like You – the Great One Who became small the Wakeful who slept, the Pure One who was baptized, the Living One who died, the King who abased Himself to ensure honor for all! Blessed is Your honor! Refrain: Blessed is Your rising!”

LINK

"Btar'o Dilokh" ......a beautiful song!

"Merciful God, the voice of our prayer knocks at the door, prevent not from thy devotees the petitions of their needs. We call upon thee, O God, to assist us in our infirmities. O good one. Hearken to the voice of our supplication and grant our petitions in thy mercy"

Blessings
Mitzi

and thanks!

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Arsenios - I know that you can remember this....

How can I remember what I have not seen or heard or read before?

"In the Anaphora of Saint James of Jerusalem, the deacons sing the following metrical homily attributed to Saint James of Serugh during the closing acts of the liturgy when, after communion and before departing, the faithful receive a last blessing by kissing the Gospel book and eating a piece of blessed bread:

From on high did power descent to us, from a womb did hope shine out for us, from the grave salvation appeared for us, and on the right hand the King sits for us; blessed in His Glory!... From on high He came down as Lord, from the womb He came forth as a servant, death knelt before Him in Sheol, and life worshiped Him in His Resurrection. Blessed is His victory!...His birth gives us purification, His baptism gives us forgiveness, His death is life to us, His ascension is our exaltation. How should we thank him!...Whom have, Lord, like You – the Great One Who became small the Wakeful who slept, the Pure One who was baptized, the Living One who died, the King who abased Himself to ensure honor for all! Blessed is Your honor! Refrain: Blessed is Your rising!”

This is beautiful and holy and Orthodox, but it is not our practice in the Liturgy...

"Metrical homily" is not a term we use...

"Btar'o Dilokh" ......a beautiful song!

Inbdeed...


Arsenios

[mitzi]

How can I remember what I have not seen or heard or read before?



This is beautiful and holy and Orthodox, but it is not our practice in the Liturgy...

"Metrical homily" is not a term we use...



Inbdeed...


Arsenios

Hi Arsenios;

"Metrical homily" or metre are used in the East Syrian, I believe. I am becoming familiar with and also the difference (now) of both East and West Syriac hymns - this is so very interesting and something that you said earlier in this thread that lead me in that direction - or I thought in this thread or maybe perhaps another thread that struck a thought.

A little back ground history:

History of Syriac chants goes back to the period of Ephraim, the Syrian. (AD 306-373)

"Metical homilies – or Chants: They are chanted sermons that almost never rhyme – the lines are metrical, the language is ordered, and the effect is often pleasing (Rhymed poetry - Ephrem wrote a wide variety of hymns, poems, and sermons in verse, as well as prose biblical exegesis.) Please note: The most important of his works are his lyric, teaching hymns (ܡܕܖ̈ܫܐ, madrāšê). These hymns are full of rich, poetic imagery drawn from biblical sources, folk tradition, and other religions and philosophies. The madrāšê are written in stanzas of syllabic verse, and employ over fifty different metrical schemes. Ephrem the Syrian" link

So I had to look all this up on Saturday, as I dung through many topics. I don't believe I found the actual info on it - but this came close:

(Hymn De Nativitate 11: 6-8).

To express the mystery of Christ, Ephrem uses a broad range of topics, expressions and images. In one of his hymns he effectively links Adam (in Paradise) to Christ (in the Eucharist): "It was by closing with the sword of the cherub that the path to the tree of life was closed. But for the peoples, the Lord of this tree gave himself as food in his (Eucharistic) oblation.


"The trees of the Garden of Eden were given as food to the first Adam. For us, the gardener of the Garden in person made himself food for our souls. Indeed, we had all left Paradise together with Adam, who left it behind him.


"Now that the sword has been removed here below (on the Cross), replaced by the spear, we can return to it".

(Hymn 49: 9-11).

To speak of the Eucharist, Ephrem used two images, embers or burning coal and the pearl. The burning coal theme was taken from the Prophet Isaiah (cf. 6: 6). It is the image of one of the seraphim who picks up a burning coal with tongs and simply touches the lips of the Prophet with it in order to purify them; the Christian, on the other hand, touches and consumes the Burning Coal which is Christ himself:

So you struck a cord and I am off - on another venture. There's more information on this topic however, I wanted you to remember was the fact, and you being Orthodox - and knowing, that Jesus didn't just accomplish one thing on the cross. We all know this!

So Blessings -
Mitzi

[mitzi]

How can I remember what I have not seen or heard or read before?



This is beautiful and holy and Orthodox, but it is not our practice in the Liturgy...

"Metrical homily" is not a term we use...



Inbdeed...


Arsenios

LINK for the last quotations: Tenny Thomas to present paper at 6th annual Archbishop Iakovos Graduate Student Conference in Patristic Studies

"I placed (the pearl), my brothers, on the palm of my hand, to be able to examine it. I began to look at it from one side and from the other: it looked the same from all sides. (Thus) is the search for the Son inscrutable, because it is all light. In its clarity I saw the Clear One who does not grow opaque; and in his purity, the great symbol of the Body of Our Lord, which is pure. In his indivisibility I saw the truth which is indivisible. (Hymn On the Pearl 1: 2-3)."

[Rdr. Arsenios]

"Metical homilies – or Chants: They are chanted sermons that almost never rhyme – the lines are metrical, the language is ordered, and the effect is often pleasing (Rhymed poetry - Ephrem wrote a wide variety of hymns, poems, and sermons in verse, as well as prose biblical exegesis.) Please note: The most important of his works are his lyric, teaching hymns (ܡܕܖ̈ܫܐ, madrāšê). These hymns are full of rich, poetic imagery drawn from biblical sources, folk tradition, and other religions and philosophies. The madrāšê are written in stanzas of syllabic verse, and employ over fifty different metrical schemes. Ephrem the Syrian" link

The description seems much more akin to an Akathist in Orthodoxy...
And while the descriptives, much like the Psalms, are profound,
Discipleship focuses on the nepsis which recognizes their depth...

So that we do not so much enter their aesthetic
Although we can, and cannot avoid the aesthetic,
But instead we ingest them into our praxis,
That across the years of a lifetime
We should be ever so slowly transformed
And the hardened roadways of our wretched hearts
Might actually soften in a fecundity of tears...

Praying the kathismata of the Psalms does the same...
As our souls become accustomed to their chanting
And one day, when the time is needful
We flee to the service of the Psalms
And they open in beauty
And we find our way...

God bless you, Mitzi...

Be careful not to get lost in the aesthetic...
For in it, one can easily lose the humility
That the rigor of the labor of the praxis of prayer
Itself imposes to our benefit...

iow

Praying to feel good can so easily lead astray
into the aesthetic arrogance
of the gourmande...
The sipper of aesthetic delights...

Better to pray simply,
Even if without emotional remuneration
And scrub the floors...

Arsenios

[mitzi]

The description seems much more akin to an Akathist in Orthodoxy...
And while the descriptives, much like the Psalms, are profound,
Discipleship focuses on the nepsis which recognizes their depth...

So that we do not so much enter their aesthetic
Although we can, and cannot avoid the aesthetic,
But instead we ingest them into our praxis,
That across the years of a lifetime
We should be ever so slowly transformed
And the hardened roadways of our wretched hearts
Might actually soften in a fecundity of tears...

Praying the kathismata of the Psalms does the same...
As our souls become accustomed to their chanting
And one day, when the time is needful
We flee to the service of the Psalms
And they open in beauty
And we find our way...

God bless you, Mitzi...

Be careful not to get lost in the aesthetic...
For in it, one can easily lose the humility
That the rigor of the labor of the praxis of prayer
Itself imposes to our benefit...

iow

Praying to feel good can so easily lead astray
into the aesthetic arrogance
of the gourmande...
The sipper of aesthetic delights...

Better to pray simply,
Even if without emotional remuneration
And scrub the floors...

Arsenios

Thank you for the advice as I understand this. There is much to suffering as well, it is extremely important to keep both balanced. As Job said, "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”

There is a hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.—Job 14:7.

Many blessing back -
Mitzi