Jews and the death of Christ

[Cybelle Hawke]

We each make our own choices.

I don't understand your feeling of despair. Judaism regards G-d's Laws as a delight, not a burden.

Burden?.... no I did not say that nor did I wanted you to think this. Once again my poor English has put you on the wrong foot. Very sorry for that Tanakh.

Indeed, G-d´s Law is Just and Perfect. A delight and treasure that He gave to Israel...... and through Israel to the world.

My despair roots in the knowledge that in trespassing His Laws, I Justly deserve death. No good deeds to compensate, no smart argument to turn the tide, no softening circumstances that would justify breaking them....

For me, it comes down to what G-d has done. It is not me who deserves forgiveness; it is He who has provided it.

Are not our hopes of a similar kind Tanakh? Do we not both pray, beg and dare believe that G-d´s Compassion and Mercy will prevail when we repent?

[Tanakh Keeper]

Burden?.... no I did not say that nor did I wanted you to think this. Once again my poor English has put you on the wrong foot.

On this medium, we only have the typed word to go by. We miss out on the major means of communication, e.g. inflection, tone of voice, and body language. What is your native language?

My despair roots in the knowledge that in trespassing His Laws, I Justly deserve death. No good deeds to compensate, no smart argument to turn the tide, no softening circumstances that would justify breaking them....

Put aside your despair. G-d created us, He knows exactly what we are capable of. G-d does not expect perfection and never has. He expects each person to try their best and to make good choices. He knows we will stumble, that's why He provided ways for us to atone. Atonement isnt mystical nor is it beyond us. Basically, admit your error, make restitution, seek forgiveness from your fellow human, and offer sincere reptentant prayer to G-d. Ta-da! You're atoned and forgiven.

You're right that good deeds don't negate bad deeds. Good deeds are basically a demonstration that you are making good choices.

Do we not both pray, beg and dare believe that G-d´s Compassion and Mercy will prevail when we repent?

G-d isn't called the All-Merciful for nothing. There is no reason to disbelieve that G-d will forgive us, He has already told us that He will do so. When G-d says it, I believe it.

[footwasher]

So this is obsolete?

Deuteronomy 30:1-19 NET

“When you have experienced all these things, both the blessings and the curses I have set before you, you will reflect upon them in all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you. Then if you and your descendants turn to the Lord your God and obey him with your whole mind and being just as I am commanding you today, the Lord your God will reverse your captivity and have pity on you. He will turn and gather you from all the peoples among whom he has scattered you. Even if your exiles are in the most distant land, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. Then he will bring you to the land your ancestors possessed and you also will possess it; he will do better for you and multiply you more than he did your ancestors. The Lord your God will also cleanse your heart and the hearts of your descendants so that you may love him with all your mind and being and so that you may live. Then the Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies, on those who hate you and persecute you. You will return and obey the Lord, keeping all his commandments I am giving you today. The Lord your God will make the labor of your hands abundantly successful and multiply your children, the offspring of your cattle, and the produce of your soil. For the Lord your God will once more rejoice over you to make you prosperous just as he rejoiced over your ancestors, if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commandments and statutes that are written in this scroll of the law. But you must turn to him with your whole mind and being.
“This commandment I am giving you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it too remote. It is not in heaven, as though one must say, “Who will go up to heaven to get it for us and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” And it is not across the sea, as though one must say, “Who will cross over to the other side of the sea and get it for us and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” For the thing is very near you – it is in your mouth and in your mind so that you can do it.
“Look! I have set before you today life and prosperity on the one hand, and death and disaster on the other. What I am commanding you today is to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways, and to obey his commandments, his statutes, and his ordinances. Then you will live and become numerous and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you are about to possess. However, if you turn aside and do not obey, but are lured away to worship and serve other gods, I declare to you this very day that you will certainly perish! You will not extend your time in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess. Today I invoke heaven and earth as a witness against you that I have set life and death, blessing and curse, before you. Therefore choose life so that you and your descendants may live!

[Tanakh Keeper]

Of course not. It's a proof and verification.

[footwasher]

Of course not. It's a proof and verification.

If you substitute mercy for strict justice, you reduce the requirements to a nullity.

IOW, the text provides no proof or verification of your view.

[robrecht]

If you substitute mercy for strict justice, you reduce the requirements to a nullity.

IOW, the text provides no proof or verification of your view.

Why oppose God's mercy to his justice? Perhaps his mercy is the greatest justice we can imagine.

Thanks, Robrecht

[footwasher]

Why oppose God's mercy to his justice? Perhaps his mercy is the greatest justice we can imagine.

Thanks, Robrecht

Please, Robrecht, I've just had a hard day with some Eastern mystics, who have no concept of good and evil in their dualistic worldview (good is necessary, but bad is also necessary) :cry:

Let's try to keep the distinctives clear:



1) dif·fi·cult /ˈdifiˌkəlt/Adjective: 1. Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand. 2. Characterized by or causing hardships or problems.

Synonyms: hard - heavy - trying - tough - arduous - laborious

2) joy /joi/Noun: 1. A feeling of great pleasure and happiness. 2. A thing that causes joy.

Synonyms: delight - gladness - pleasure - mirth - rejoicing )


3) jus·tice /ˈjəstis/Noun: 1. Just behavior or treatment. 2. The quality of being fair and reasonable.

Synonyms: fairness - equity - right - righteousness - justness


4) mer·cy /ˈmərsē/Noun: 1. Compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm: "the boy was begging for mercy". 2. An event to be grateful for, esp. because its occurrence prevents something unpleasant or provides relief from suffering.

Synonyms: pity - compassion - clemency - grace - charity - ruth


Now let's find the right place for all those terms in the real world and not the world of Eastern mystics or Jewish doublespeak.

Quote
Townsperson: Why should I break my head about the outside world? Let the outside world break its own head…. Tevye: He is right… Perchik: Nonsense. You can’t close your eyes to what’s happening in the world. Tevye: He’s right. Rabbi’s pupil: He’s right, and he’s right. They can’t both be right! Tevye: (Pause). You know, you are also right.

Sholem Aleichem's Tevye and His Daughters.

[Tanakh Keeper]

“This commandment I am giving you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it too remote. It is not in heaven, as though one must say, “Who will go up to heaven to get it for us and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” And it is not across the sea, as though one must say, “Who will cross over to the other side of the sea and get it for us and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” For the thing is very near you – it is in your mouth and in your mind so that you can do it.

This is exactly my view. G-d says we can do it. By the way, the atonement laws are among G-d's laws and commandments.

[footwasher]

This is exactly my view. G-d says we can do it. By the way, the atonement laws are among G-d's laws and commandments.

Nice dodge. Please address the issue of God's forgiveness predicated on full obedience.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Please show support from Deut 30 that perfect obedience is required.

[footwasher]

Please show support from Deut 30 that perfect obedience is required.

Please show from anywhere criterion for non-observance of any of the precepts by Israel.

;)

[robrecht]

We each make our own choices.

I don't understand your feeling of despair. Judaism regards G-d's Laws as a delight, not a burden.

Likewise Christians:

αυτη γάρ εστιν η αγάπη του Θεου, ινα τας εντολας αυτου τηρωμεν· και αι εντολαι αυτου βαρειαι ουκ εισίν

For this is the love of God, that we may keep his commandments; and his commandments are not heavy.