Jews and the death of Christ

[sylvius]

How many people did you hear today, say that "they pay too much in taxes" or "we should throw all the bums out of office". Making anti-government statements doesn't equate to being an enemy of the government.

The statement isn't about taxes.

"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's"

Make Caesar not a god = don't deify any human being.

Yet they do so by prostrating themselves to crucifixes with inscription "Jesus Nazarene King of the Jews"

[DanHopkins]

Sylvius,

According to the story, Jesus did help pay for the stake he hung on when he had Peter pull a coin from the fish (right up there with needing spit and mud to help the "miracle")
I am constantly amazed at how many people use “render to Caesar …” when they have not read Jesus tell Peter that he is exempt from taxes. The Buddhist scholar Schopen first pointed out that the Buddhists claimed they were also exempt from taxes and other laws. But, since Jesus tells people not to use to names (good, and father) for anyone else, and since Agatha (good) was a very popular early Christian name, and Pope means “father”, I guess I’m not that surprised

[DanHopkins]

also, can you show me where there is a "death" of Jesus. Remember we use "death" to mean a permanent state.

[Hamster]

also, can you show me where there is a "death" of Jesus. Remember we use "death" to mean a permanent state.

So hypothetically no one's dead unless we can confirm they're gone for good somehow

[sylvius]

also, can you show me where there is a "death" of Jesus. Remember we use "death" to mean a permanent state.

Only in Pilate's experience:

Mark 15:43-45

Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the corpse to Joseph.

Note that Joseph asks for Jesus' body, σῶμα, and that Pilate gives the corpse, πτῶμα.

Pilate, after John 19:19, was the one responsible for the blatant anti-semitcal inscription on the cross,
"Jesus Nazarene king of the Jews", counterpart of the inscription on Roman coins:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar...

The inscription on a denarius of the period reads “Ti[berivs] Caesar Divi Avg[vsti] F[ilivs] Avgvstvs” (“Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus”), claiming that Augustus was a god.

(Note also that the inscription in Hebrew likely must have been "Yeshu haNotsri Melech haYehudim",
since the gematria of "Yeshu haNotsri" is 671, like of "yom hashishi" in Genesis 1:31, where, after Mark, has to be found "the stone that was rejected by the builders" - because the Name of God is hidden in the beginletters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim", only if you not leave out the letter "heh" of "hashishi", for then you'r left with "yom shishi", of which the gematria is 666).

So in fact Pilate payed the price in handing over the corpse to Joseph, in his eyes something worth not even a penny...

[DanHopkins]

I guess you disagree with Jesus' For as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days ansd three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for...'- Jonah was alive in the fish. I also guess that the miracle did not heal his scars or he would not have asked Thomas to touch them.

[Adrift]

also, can you show me where there is a "death" of Jesus. Remember we use "death" to mean a permanent state.

Do you agree with the Apostle's Creed?

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead;

He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.

[sylvius]

I guess you disagree with Jesus' For as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days ansd three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for...'- Jonah was alive in the fish. I also guess that the miracle did not heal his scars or he would not have asked Thomas to touch them.

Jonah means dove, the physical form in which the holy ghost descended from heaven when Jesus came up from the water (Mark 1:10), which must be rooted in Jonah 2.

v.1: And the Lord appointed a huge fish to swallow up Jonah, and Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights.
(...)
v.11 And the Lord said to the fish, and it spewed Jonah onto the dry land.

Paul wrote, Romans 6:3-4,

Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death (,,,)

The three days and three nights spent in "the heart of the earth" denote the same as the resurrection "on the third day".

Mark 8:31; 9:31; 10:32 "After three days"
Matthew 16:21; 17:22; 20:17 "On the third day"

I do think it refers to the third day of creation, the day on which first the dry land (= earth) did appear, and next the vegetation. (about which there is something strange: God commanded the earth to bring forth "fruit tree yiedling fruit" but the earth brought forth "tree yielding fruit" and yet (or because of that) "God saw that it was good" (Genesis 1:12 - the mystery of creation!)

So it is not a question of counting, like he died on a friday and resurrected on the following sunday.

He was the resurrected one already from the very beginning, even from before he was conceived.

[Xru]

also, can you show me where there is a "death" of Jesus. Remember we use "death" to mean a permanent state.

Well that's why it's called a miracle DH.

[DanHopkins]

Nice try, but the fact remains that Jesus frequently tells people he will "get up"; he even claims to see his future existence so how can you say that he has died? Later we find that he was "in the earth" , or in hell converting the wicked. Do you know of any other hero figure who dives into the earth to save the hell dwellers? I am only aware of Buddha and his advice to his Bodhisattvas.

[DanHopkins]

Hampster,

Even if there was a Jesus who "died" and "came back from death", you must admit that the Jesus of the four gospels is absolutely sure that he will get up and live in glory. I dont know what kind of sacrifice you think that is but I know of people who have given there lives without knowing or caring about glory, I call that faith and one hell of a sacrifice!
I could argue that death means something like ‘when biological processes no longer function’ and you could argue a clinical definition that would have one pronounced “dead” well before three days, or as far as we know, assuming someone checked Jesus' vital signs, several hours?? My only point is that I don’t understand how a believer could speak of him as "dying". I do understand the belief that he was put on the stake for some hours, that he cried out in disbelief, passed out and got up. I read the story as a massive guilt trip for the wicked "I have not come for the righteous". The same guilt trip is clearly explained in the Lotus sutra.

[Hamster]

I dont know what kind of sacrifice you think that is

It's not an 'emotional' sacrifice, it's a "ritual" sacrifice, an action full of meaning/symbolism. Of course, God experiences time forever in a "now" state so that means He is perpetually experiencing the shame and degradation of being crucified in an eternal present

[DanHopkins]

Usually crying is considered emotional, and in the sense that Jesus' sacrifice was said of others before I guess this is what you mean by a "ritual sacrifice".

You wrote; "God... is perpetually experiencing the shame and degradation of being crucified in an eternal present" I guess he also experiences the glory of the son's return at the same time and, if justice ultimately prevails, wouldn't God's feelings be void?

[robrecht]

This is blasphemous and I have reported it to the moderation teams.

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"Inappropriate Content NO user-submitted content (including but not limited to Private Messages, forum-generated emails, post grades, blogs, user notes, or user profiles) shall contain any obscene, vulgar, illegal, sexually-explicit, gratuitously blasphemous . . . "

Note: As there is no reasonable and responsible Biblical scholars who would support your view, I can only assume you are a fringe nutcase.

Or maybe you are just too socially retarded to understand how offensive your fringe opinion is.

Of course, we as Christians are offended by this, but I don't think it is necessarily gratuitous in this forum and relating to this topic. Other than the foot of the cross part (which is very creative for this topic) , sylvius was basically just repeating a 2nd century (reportedly) Jewish view of the infancy narratives with Panthera (or Pantera or Pandera, a play on παρθένος) being the Roman soldier and father of Jesus. See already Jn 8,41.

Thanks, Robrecht

[robrecht]

Oops, Greek font on my phone is not working on this forum:

Of course, we as Christians are offended by this, but I don't think it is necessarily gratuitous in this forum and relating to this topic. Other than the foot of the cross part (which is very creative for this topic), sylvius was basically just repeating a 2nd century (reportedly) Jewish view of the infancy narratives with Panthera (or Pantera or Pandera, a play on parthenos) being the Roman soldier and father of Jesus. See already Jn 8,41.