Maurice Bucaille's on The Bible, The Qur'an and Science

[Bowman]

39:5He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night.
In the Qur'an, the words used for describing the universe are quite remarkable. The Arabic word that is translated as "to wrap" in the above verse isتكوير "takwir". In English, it means "to make one thing lap over another, folded up as a garment that is laid away". (For instance, in Arabic dictionaries this word is used for the action of wrapping one thing around another, in the way that a turban is put on.)
The information given in the verse about the day and the night wrapping each other up includes accurate information about the shape of the world. This can be true only if the earth is round. This means that in the Qur'an, which was revealed in the 7th century, the roundness of the world was hinted at.
It should be remembered, however, that the understanding of astronomy of the time perceived the world differently. It was then thought that the world was a flat plane and all scientific calculations and explanations were based on this belief. The verses of the Qur'an, however, include information that we have learned only in the past century. Since the Qur'an is God's word, the most correct words were used in it when it comes to describing the universe. (Source: Miracles of the Quran by\ Harun Yahya)
* Don’t miss the chapter about Human Reproduction of Maurice’s book

Where is the surgeon's context?




39.5

لو أراد الله أن يتخذ ولدا لاصطفى مما يخلق ما

يشاء سبحنه هو الله الوحد القهار خلق السموت والأرض بالحق يكور اليل على النهار ويكور النهار على اليل وسخر الشمس والقمر كل يجري لأجل مسمى ألا هو العزيز الغفر

Law arada Allahu an yattakhitha waladan laistafa mimma yakhluqu ma yashao subhanahu huwa Allahu alwahidu alqahharu khalaqa alssamawati waal-arda bialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahari wayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayli wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru

Although “allah” he intended that he takes a son; he has not chosen from that which he creates, (but) what he wills, glory be to him, he, allah”, the one, the supreme. He created the heavens and the earth through The Truth. He causes to revolve the night onto the day, and He causes to revolve the day onto the night, and He made subservient the sun and the moon, each pursues its course to a fixed and appointed term, is He not the all-mighty, the most protecting one? (39.4 – 5)


Contextually, the two root derivatives that exist outside of sura 81 (i.e. entirely paraphrased Book of Revelation material), both occurring in 39.5, are used in direct reference to Jesus Christ (i.e. ‘The Son’), (i.e. ‘The Truth’) in these creation ayahs.

Not only is the Universe created through ‘The Truth’ (Jesus Christ) in the context, but He is responsible for alternation of day and night (i.e. light & darkness).

These ayahs demonstrate the following:

· Jesus is deity
· Jesus is the uncreated Son
· Jesus controls light and darkness

[TheRationalizer]

Tayseer

Did you spend any time at all researching investigations into these miracles claims, or did you stop as soon as you read something which appeared to confirm something you WANT to be true?

For example, I have The Big Bang on my YouTube channel.

[rogue06]

Tayseer

Did you spend any time at all researching investigations into these miracles claims, or did you stop as soon as you read something which appeared to confirm something you WANT to be true?

For example, I have The Big Bang on my YouTube channel.

I was hoping she brought up the Big Bang and the qur'an

[TheRationalizer]

• Edited by a Moderator •

Moderated By: T-Shirt Ninja

If you want to argue with moderation, do it in the Psychotherapy Room. The link is provided in the bottom of the notice box.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[Tayseer]

Also, from what I have been able to determine the Arabaic word now being translated as to mean expanse, moosi-oon (plural form of the verb moosi), is an active participle that can mean "stretch" similar to what we find in Isaiah and can also mean "enrich."

That is right.

Elsewhere in the qur'an when moosi is used it is translated as "rich" or "wealthy" but never as "expand." The standard Arabic word for "expanse" is noosi'u (or noo siu)

But even if moosi-oon were to mean "expand"

Even the term that islam wants to force as ‘expanding’ is the term “moosiAAoona”, and has the classic definition as thus… موسعون= “moosiAAoona” “moosiAAoona” definition: Active participle, masculine plural. Maker of the vast extent. It comes from the root “wasi’a, which means to be ample, take in, comprehend, embrace

If you are trying to say that the Arabic word moosi موسعonly means rich\wealthy\enrich and doesn’t mean to expand or even trying to say that moosi rarely means to expand then you are absolutely mistaken.
The Quranic Arabic differs a bit than the spoken Arabic nowadays. Some words mentioned in the Quran are not being used nowadays . The word in Arabic has many many different meanings and most Arabs of nowadays lack knowledge in their language and they have a limited understanding of some quranic verses because the lack of linguistic knowledge. Anyways, The word moosi is still understood as “To Expand” more than “rich or wealthy” amongst native Arabic speakers of nowadays!
The word moosi-oon comes from the rootوسع W S A’ (Waw, Seen and Ayn) which has more than a meaning . I’ll give u the word used in more than a sentence with different meaning as mentiond in Lisan al-Arab (the greatest Arabic lexicon by Ibn Manzoor), Magayees Al lughah and Alsehah fi Al lughah:
(referring to them is much better or to an Arabic- English Lexicon )
1- Rajulun Mose’a = a rich man
2- Wassa’too Albait= I expanded the house
3- Tawsa’ fi Alkalam= to expand on a statement
4- Tawasa’oo=Space yourselves
5- Wase’ is the opposite of narrow
6- Malabes wase’a= loose clothes
7- Sa’a = vastness
8- Also sa’a means ability and capacity
9- … etc

Elsewhere in the qur'an when moosi is used it is translated as "rich" or "wealthy" but never as "expand." The standard Arabic word for "expanse" is noosi'u (or noo siu)

Absolutely Wrong.
These are SOME verses with the word WSA’ in different meaning:
2:233 No person is charged with more than his capacity (Wosa’ha وسعها).
Also the same meaning is repeated with WSA’ in 2:286
2:255 … His Kursi extends (Wase’a وسع)over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.
20:98 Your god is only Allah, except for whom there is no deity. He has encompassed (Wase’a وسع) all things in knowledge."
7:156 And decree for us in this world [that which is] good and [also] in the Hereafter; indeed, we have turned back to You." [Allah] said, "My punishment - I afflict with it whom I will, but My mercy encompasses (Wase’at وسعت) all things." So I will decree it [especially] for those who fear Me and give zakah and those who believe in Our verses –
You see the word is mentioned in the Quran many times with different meanings not only “rich or wealthy” all the time and only once to mean “Expand” for more verses : 7:80 – 8:152- 15:62 ….etc

the verse still isn't saying that the universe is expanding because the word moosi-oon is preceded by the prefix la (la-moosi-oon) which indicates that it is actually a promise to do something in the future.

!!?? your Arabic is not good at all! By the way I’m a native Arabic speaker.
First you need to know the “E’rab إعراب” of the sentence . When The prefix La is added to a word it has more than a meaning if you were to speak Arabic.
The “Era’b” إعراب of "وإنَّالموسعون" Enna La moosi-oon is: (halleya min fa’el بنيناهاBanaynaha)
La moosi-oon means that we have expanded the Sama’a and we are still expanding it.
To be an Interpreter of Quran you need to skill many criteria and mastering Arabic is one of them. Read for the great interpreters of Quran as Ibn Katheer, Alrazi,Ibn A’shor, Alsha’rawy, Alqurtubi ….etc

It is highly unlikely that this ayah is speaking about an expanding Universe, as the verse preceding this one talks about Noah, and is coupled with it via the usage of copulative particle “wa”.

First, I’d like to say that reading the Quran is’nt like reading the Bible. The Arabic structure and style of the quran can’t be read the way you read any other book even an Arabic book!
Secondly, You are comparing Arabic language to your language which is a big mistake! It’s wrong to compare English with French and think that English style is like the French one even though these 2 languages come from the same root Latin. So it’s awfully horrible to think that a Latin language is close- familiar or comparable to a SEMETIC one!

So…this second selection cannot possibly have intrigued any early Muslim (even if they were literate!) to pursue the natural sciences…you would not launch from discussing Hell into an immediate discussion of natural creation.

That insures that you’ve never read Quran !! as previously said The Arabic structure and style of the quran differs from any other book. You can ask an orientalist from the nearest university about Quranic linguistic structure.
Or learn Arabic and read for Mustafa Sadeq Alrafe’y the famous Arabic Language scholar. Arab Christians poets and writers have never denied the beautiful linguistic structure and the accurate usage of words they consider the Quran to be a great work of literature (Muslims don’t consider the Quran as a book of literature nor a book of science but God’s word) for instance you have Ibrahim al-yaziji a famous Christian Lebanese philologist and poet in his book نجعة الرائد. Also you have Jabr Domatt جبر ضومط in his book الخواطر الحسان and Khalil Jubran .
***
Your response and the one b4 u are out of ignorance not logic cause if you were Arabic speaking Christians and know Arabic well you would not even think about what you thought were mistakes .
You are Arguing in things you don’t know(Don’t even speak Arabic and still arguing!!!) But I’m gonna complete clarifying your mistakes And Imam AlGhazalli tells such people ignoring what they are talking about:
انردالمذهبقبلفهمهوالاطلاععلىكنههردفيعماية
Translate that yourselves.

“Alssamaa” can easily be rendered as ‘the clouds’ as it is in numerous other Koranic locations.

First, u r mistaken. Secondly, What logic were u trying to apply?!! That doesn’t make sense!
If the word Alssamaa” can easily be rendered as ‘the clouds’ as it is in numerous other Koranic locations then it also means clouds in this verse!!
Anyways, here you the usages of this word from the previously mentioned Arabic lexicons the root of A-ssama’ is SMA (Seen, Meem and Alef):
1- Sma= to get higher
2- والسَماءُكلُّماعلاكفأظلّك، means that A-ssama’ can be called on everything up you which screens or protects you from light or whatsoever.
3- The roof of house is called Sama’a (Ceiling)
4- Sama’a also means clouds and sometimes Rain
5- Sama’a = Heaven
6- Samma’=universe
The word A-ssma’a is mentioned many many times in the Quran with different meanings here you Some verses to refer to:
2:19\2:22\3:5\2:29\2:59\2:144\4:153\5:114\6:35…….etc

Finally, all of this overlooks the fact that the qur'an also describes the sky or heavens as being "a canopy well guarded" (21:32) and that it was "raised" (um, no) upon invisible pillars (13:2), all of which directly contradicts the contention that the qur'an teaches an expanding universe.

وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ ﴿٤٧﴾

Waalssamaa banaynaha biaydin wainna lamoosiAAoona

Yusuf Ali’s translation:
With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

وَجَعَلْنَا السَّمَاءَ سَقْفًا مَّحْفُوظًاۖ وَهُمْ عَنْ آيَاتِهَا مُعْرِضُونَ﴿٣٢﴾

WajaAAalna alssamaa saqfanmahfoothan wahum AAan ayatiha muAAridoona
21:32 And We made the sky a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, are turning away.

اللَّـهُ الَّذِي رَفَعَ السَّمَاوَاتِ بِغَيْرِ عَمَدٍ تَرَوْنَهَاۖ ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ ۖ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ ۖ كُلٌّ يَجْرِي لِأَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى ۚ يُدَبِّرُ الْأَمْرَ يُفَصِّلُ الْآيَاتِ لَعَلَّكُم بِلِقَاءِ رَبِّكُمْ تُوقِنُونَ﴿٢﴾

Allahu allathee rafaAAa alssamawati bighayri AAamadin tarawnaha

13:2 It is Allah who erected the heavens without pillars that you [can] see;

The 2 previous verses don’t contradict with the first one which contains the fact of expanding of universe .
I’m not sure how they contradict in your point of view but I’ll try to give an explanation followed with deeper ones.
The first verse 21:30
God guards heavens (21:32) while they are still expanding more and more (51:47) and these heavens were created (13:2) without pillars or with invisible pillars or God created them without any support as it would be clear after reading the following:
In The Tafsir of Al-Qurtubi it’s mentioned that interprets had different opinions on the meaning of the word عمد and the structure of the verse.
Some said the verse “بغير عمد ترونها” means (that heavens were created without pillars as you see) and some said :( no it means the heavens were created with pillars but you can’t see them) invisible pillars as clear in the English translation . In Arabic that is not clear.
Ibn Abbas says : the word AMD عمد = pillars was usedmetaphorically. And, the pillars are true faith and monotheism.
And some said ( it means that God created heavens without عمد= without support of anyone) and the interpretation of verse 30:25 in Tafsir Al Jalalayn supports this meaning:
30:25 And among His Signs is this, that heaven and earth stand by His Command: then when He calls you, by a single call, from the earth, behold, ye (straightway) come forth.
وَمِنْآيَاتِهِأَنتَقُومَالسَّمَاءُوَالْأَرْضُبِأَمْرِهِۚثُمَّإِذَادَعَاكُمْدَعْوَةًمِّنَالْأَرْضِإِذَاأَنتُمْتَخْرُجُونَ﴿٢٥﴾
The Tafsir in Al Jalalayn (in Arabic):
«ومنآياتهأنتقومالسماءوالأرضبأمره» بإرادتهمنغيرعمد «ثمإذادعاكمدعوةمنالأرض» بأنينفخإسرافيلفيالصورللبعثمنالقبور «إذاأنتمتخرجون» منهاأحياءفخروجكممنهابدعوةمنآياتهتعالى.
Translation:
And of His signs is that the heaven and earth remain standing by His command, by His will, without any supports, then, when He calls you( to come) out of the earth, when Israfil blows the Horn for the raising from the graves (to commence), lo! You shall come forth, from it alive. Thus your coming forth out of it by a call constitutes one of His (many) signs, exalted be He.
As you can see the word AMD عمد is used in the Arabic text and translated as:
( Without any supports).

I’ve intentionally ignored some of Bowman’s points to be discussed later in a new thread. It would be about whether the Quran was quoted of The Bible and the contradictions which the Bible is full of.
If Muhammad really quoted Quran from Bible then why he only quoted the true things and left the wrong ones?
In the coming thread God wills .

[Tayseer]

AlGhazalli tells such people ignoring what they are talking about: انردالمذهبقبلفهمهوالاطلاععلىكنههردفيعماية

إن رد المذهب قبل فهمه والاطلاع على كنهه رد في عماية

[Tayseer]

Oh my, that propoganda piece by Maurice B, has already been soundly rebutted, debunked and rubbished by Dr.William Campbell''s Book

Haven’t seen the debate between Dr.William Campbell and Dr.Zakir Naik?!!
It’s called ‘The Quran and The Bible in the light of Science” !
So many errors were found in Bible with no response from Dr. Campbll!

[Bowman]

If you are trying to say that the Arabic word moosi موسعonly means rich\wealthy\enrich and doesn’t mean to expand or even trying to say that moosi rarely means to expand then you are absolutely mistaken.
The Quranic Arabic differs a bit than the spoken Arabic nowadays. Some words mentioned in the Quran are not being used nowadays . The word in Arabic has many many different meanings and most Arabs of nowadays lack knowledge in their language and they have a limited understanding of some quranic verses because the lack of linguistic knowledge. Anyways, The word moosi is still understood as “To Expand” more than “rich or wealthy” amongst native Arabic speakers of nowadays!
The word moosi-oon comes from the rootوسع W S A’ (Waw, Seen and Ayn) which has more than a meaning . I’ll give u the word used in more than a sentence with different meaning as mentiond in Lisan al-Arab (the greatest Arabic lexicon by Ibn Manzoor), Magayees Al lughah and Alsehah fi Al lughah:
(referring to them is much better or to an Arabic- English Lexicon )
1- Rajulun Mose’a = a rich man
2- Wassa’too Albait= I expanded the house
3- Tawsa’ fi Alkalam= to expand on a statement
4- Tawasa’oo=Space yourselves
5- Wase’ is the opposite of narrow
6- Malabes wase’a= loose clothes
7- Sa’a = vastness
8- Also sa’a means ability and capacity
9- … etc

Lanes’ lexicon already integrates these works, brother.

Furthermore, neither the root nor its 10 derivatives use ‘expanded’ anywhere in the Koran.

It is good that you are already cognizant that the original words have changed in meaning – hence a large part of the problem with followers of islam, along with rampant illiteracy.

First, I’d like to say that reading the Quran is’nt like reading the Bible. The Arabic structure and style of the quran can’t be read the way you read any other book even an Arabic book!

The Koran is merely repackaged paraphrased Biblical material, most of which was taken directly from the Biblical Book of Revelation.

Once this is understood, then it’s original meaning is rather straight forward.

Secondly, You are comparing Arabic language to your language which is a big mistake! It’s wrong to compare English with French and think that English style is like the French one even though these 2 languages come from the same root Latin. So it’s awfully horrible to think that a Latin language is close- familiar or comparable to a SEMETIC one!

Any language can be interrogated to reveal its intended meaning.

Even you are attempting to tell us what the Arabic means in English after you just told us that it cannot be done!

Come on brother…

That insures that you’ve never read Quran !! as previously said The Arabic structure and style of the quran differs from any other book. You can ask an orientalist from the nearest university about Quranic linguistic structure.
Or learn Arabic and read for Mustafa Sadeq Alrafe’y the famous Arabic Language scholar. Arab Christians poets and writers have never denied the beautiful linguistic structure and the accurate usage of words they consider the Quran to be a great work of literature (Muslims don’t consider the Quran as a book of literature nor a book of science but God’s word) for instance you have Ibrahim al-yaziji a famous Christian Lebanese philologist and poet in his book نجعة الرائد. Also you have Jabr Domatt جبر ضومط in his book الخواطر الحسان and Khalil Jubran .
***
Your response and the one b4 u are out of ignorance not logic cause if you were Arabic speaking Christians and know Arabic well you would not even think about what you thought were mistakes .
You are Arguing in things you don’t know(Don’t even speak Arabic and still arguing!!!) But I’m gonna complete clarifying your mistakes And Imam AlGhazalli tells such people ignoring what they are talking about:
انردالمذهبقبلفهمهوالاطلاععلىكنههردفيعماية
Translate that yourselves.

A laundry list of excuses.

Not once did you even address what I wrote.

Again…what kind of book of faith talks about Hell and then immediately launches into separating the heavens and the earth?

You need to consider context instead of plucking one-hit-wonders from your Koran.

First, u r mistaken. Secondly, What logic were u trying to apply?!! That doesn’t make sense!
If the word Alssamaa” can easily be rendered as ‘the clouds’ as it is in numerous other Koranic locations then it also means clouds in this verse!!

If you agree that clouds are being discussed, then what is so impressive about your so-called ‘expanding clouds’…?

[Tayseer]

Reread my explanations carefully .

How many fault-finders of statements
Yet the fault is faulty understanding ! (Al- Mutanabbi 'Great Arab poet')

A laundry list of excuses.

You turned my explanations into excuses !
it’s one of us you or me who doesn’t know the difference btw an excuse and an explanation.

Again…what kind of book of faith talks about Hell and then immediately launches into separating the heavens and the earth?

The Quran ! That is very ok in Arabic but it seems problematic in English!
You can take a look on Jahili poetry .



</SPAN>

You need to consider context instead of plucking one-hit-wonders from your Koran.

You r the one who needs so . Learn Arabic .

If you agree that clouds are being discussed, then what is so impressive about your so-called ‘expanding clouds’…?

Is that what you got?!!
I didn’t say anything about ‘ expanding clouds’ !!

Again, I say what Al-Mutanabbi said :
How many fault-finders of statements
Yet the fault is faulty understanding !

[Bowman]

I didn’t say anything about ‘ expanding clouds’ !!

Yes, you did, brother.

Isn't it amazing how your argument falls apart when you don't google your replies?

[rogue06]

I think the biggest issue is that none of these concepts are original with the qur'an. For instance much is made about its allegedly teaching that the world was round - a concept generally accepted in the surrounding regions for over a thousand years before the qur'an was written. The assertion that "It was then thought that the world was a flat plane and all scientific calculations and explanations were based on this belief" is without any basis in reality. As Wikipedia notes, "After the 5th century BC, no Greek writer of repute thought the world was anything but round." Likewise, even if the qur'an said that space was expanding we see this declared in Isaiah back in the 8th century B.C.

[Tayseer]

Yes, you did, brother. Isn't it amazing how your argument falls apart when you don't google your replies?

Where?

[Bowman]

Where?

Your initial post claimed this…

1- The Expansion of the Universe:
51:47 And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.

Your rendering of choice used the word ‘heaven’, and stating that ‘heaven’ was expanding.


Then, after our prompt, you state that ‘heaven’ should be rendered as 'clouds'…

If the word Alssamaa” can easily be rendered as ‘the clouds’ as it is in numerous other Koranic locations then it also means clouds in this verse!!

Thus, inserting ‘clouds’ into 51.47 now means that the ‘clouds’ are expanding according to you.

Nothing about expansion of the Universe.

[Tayseer]

How many fault-finders of statements Yet the fault is faulty understanding ! (Al- Mutanabbi 'Great Arab poet')

!!

[Tayseer]

How many fault-finders of statements

Yet the fault is faulty understanding !