Who buried Jesus?

[RhinestoneCowboy]

This always bugs me.

If I said I was flesh and blood, would that mean I didn't have any bones?

Saying Jesus was flesh and bone just means he was there in a body. It doesn't mean he didn't have blood. flesh and blood and flesh and bone are both idioms for the same thing: human body.

Unfortunately, for Paul, the earliest and only firsthand source, the "body" was a "spiritual one" in heaven experienced through visions/revelations. It was not a resurrected human body on earth. This renders the later developed orthodox version of Christianity false.

[Tassman]

This always bugs me.

If I said I was flesh and blood, would that mean I didn't have any bones?

Saying Jesus was flesh and bone just means he was there in a body. It doesn't mean he didn't have blood. flesh and blood and flesh and bone are both idioms for the same thing: human body.

Not quite the same thing! Jesus’ post-mortem body for Paul was a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44). He describes the resurrection body as "spiritual" (Greek "pneumatikos") in contrast to the natural (Greek "psychikos") body.

[tabibito]

Not quite the same thing! Jesus’ post-mortem body for Paul was a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44). He describes the resurrection body as "spiritual" (Greek "pneumatikos") in contrast to the natural (Greek "psychikos") body.

The body of the flesh is σαρκικος, not ψυκικος - the latter is the body of the soul.

[tabibito]

The NIGHT of the 14th is the 15th!!!

No - if the night of the 14th was the fifteenth, it would not be called the 14th.

Twilight (the Hebrew word is actually for "evening" when Passover is consumed) indicates the end of the 14th, beginning of the 15th.

The night of the 14th cannot start when the date is already the fifteenth.

Are you trying to claim that the lambs were slaughtered on the 13th and you mean at nighttime (beginning of the 14th) is when they eat the Passover? The lambs are slaughtered during the day on the 14th then eaten at nighttime when it becomes the 15th.

No - twilight in Hebrew is עֲלָטָה {alatah} dusk, or colloquially, on occasion, נֶשֶׁף {nesheph} denoting the evening breeze. Leviticus states that the lambs are to be slaughtered at dusk and eaten during the night of the fourteenth (and as the charts I provided show - that would be at the start of the day. There's even a division of blue and black stripes on the chart for John to show when the night and daylight occur). Hebrew practice by the first century had extended the time from dusk on the fourteenth to late afternoon on the fourteenth (a span of roughly 24 hours.)

This is how all Jews practice Passover today so are you saying that they're all wrong?

You will of course fail to note that the Biblical record shows that passover lamb is to be slaughtered and eaten on the day of preparation, following which is the seven day festival of unleavened bread. Modern Israel doesn't follow that schedule ... if you want to call that wrong, go talk to them about it.

See what Mark says in 14:12 - "On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, his disciples said to him, “Where do you want us to go and make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

Of course, they could not have asked that question when the day first started now, could they? If they did, your house of cards would be blown away.

They eat the Passover Seder later that evening (Mk. 14:16-17 beginning of Nisan 15) then Jesus is executed the next day which is still Nisan 15. Contrast that with John who has Jesus executed the same day the lambs are slaughtered (John 19:14 - Preparation for the Passover) - Nisan 14.

and yet the day of preparation - the day when Jesus was executed - is the 14th. My charts of both Mark's and John's record demonstrate the fallacy of your assertions well enough.

But John contradicts which night the synoptics say the Jews eat the Passover! You can't have them eat it the night before Jesus goes before Pilate (synoptic version) then have them wondering how they're going to eat it the next day as John 18:28 tells us.

I posted the charts that convert John's text to graphics. Obviously, the Pharisees chose to eat the Passover during the second evening of the fourteenth, rather than during the first evening - there was no reason not to.

Twilight/evening on the 14th indicates the beginning of the 15th.

Twilight of the 14th is on the 14th - twilight on the 15th is the next day - that is why the numbers of the days are different. Twilight on the 14th extends from just after 6pm (maybe as late as 7) til 8 or 8:30 pm. Which is to say, two to two-and-a-half hours after the start of the day.

[Tassman]

The body of the flesh is σαρκικος, not ψυκικος - the latter is the body of the soul.

No. Short Definition of psychikos": “animal, natural, sensuous”.

http://biblehub.com/greek/5591.htm

[tabibito]

No. Short Definition of psychikos": “animal, natural, sensuous”.

http://biblehub.com/greek/5591.htm

ψυχικός (ψῡχικός, ή, όν)
Etym. ψυχή
1. of the soul or life, spiritual, opp. to σωματικός, Arist., Anth.

And for σωματικος
σωματικός (σωμᾰτικός, ή, όν)
Etym. σῶμα
1. of or for the body, bodily, Lat. corporeus, Arist.:—adv. -κῶς, NTest.
2. bodily, corporeal, material, Arist.

then there is
σαρκικός (σαρκῐκός, ή, όν)
Etym. σάρξ
fleshly, sensual, Anth.

Or moving away from the intermediate level dictionary to the advanced

ψῡχι-κός , ή , όν , of the soul or life, spiritual, opp. σωματικός, ἡδοναί Arist. EN 1117b28 ; ὁρμαί Plb. 8.10.9 ; πνεῦμα ψ. the spirit, or breath of life, Plu. 2.1084e, etc.; νόσος ib.524d. Adv. -κῶς Ph. 1.81 ; opp. σωματικῶς, νοερῶς, Procl. Inst. 139 ; also, heartily, from the heart, LXX 2 Ma. 4.37 , 14.24 .
2. of the animal life, animal, ὁ ψ. ἄνθρωπος the natural man, opp. ὁ πνευματικός, 1 Ep.Cor. 2.14 , cf. Ep.Jud. 19 , Phot. s.v.
3. brave, Alex. 338 . II for the soul or spirit of one deceased, ψ. δῶρα διδούς, sc. to Hermes, Epigr.Gr. 815.4 ( Crete ). III cooling, Vett.Val. 6.27 (s. v. l.).

And to continue the definition provided by BibleHub

5591 psyxikós (an adjective, derived from 5590 /psyxḗ, "soul, natural identity") – properly, soulish, i.e. what is natural, as it relates to physical (tangible) life alone (i.e. apart from God's inworking of faith).

5591 /psyxikós ("natural") typically describes the natural ("lower") aspect of humanity, i.e. behavior that is "more of earth (carnality) than heaven." 5591 (psyxikós) then sometimes stands in contrast to 4152 /pneumatikós ("spiritual") – the higher, spiritual aspect of humanity that develops through faith (4102 /pístis).

Nice try - but you get no kewpie doll. And yes - we've been here before, though in less detail.

[37818]

Unfortunately, for Paul, the earliest and only firsthand source, the "body" was a "spiritual one" in heaven experienced through visions/revelations. It was not a resurrected human body on earth. This renders the later developed orthodox version of Christianity false.

Not quite the same thing! Jesus’ post-mortem body for Paul was a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44). He describes the resurrection body as "spiritual" (Greek "pneumatikos") in contrast to the natural (Greek "psychikos") body.

Paul writes of the resurrection body (1 Corinthians 15:35). Bodies are physical. How the body is animated is the difference between the "natural body" and the "spiritual body." The natural body by way of the soul in the flesh by means of the blood (see Leviticus 17:11) and the spiritual body by means of the Holy Spirit (see Romans 8:11).

[Sparko]

I was responding to Tassman. Not you my friend.

1 Corinthians 15:50,
. . .Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. . . .

And Jesus is physically a man in heaven for us (1 Timothy 2:5.)

well gorsh, how could that be? how can flesh be in heaven if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom? could it be that you are being too literal?

[Sparko]

Not quite the same thing! Jesus’ post-mortem body for Paul was a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44). He describes the resurrection body as "spiritual" (Greek "pneumatikos") in contrast to the natural (Greek "psychikos") body.

No it wasn't. Jesus had a physical body. He even said he was not a ghost to the apostles when he came back and ate food with them and had thomas touch his wounds. A resurrection without a body is an oxymoron.

Ghandi was a spiritual man. Doesn't mean he didn't have a body, does it?

[37818]

How is it relevant that your adversaries are doing it?

Well I presume they believe what they are saying. And what is actually true matters. There being a disagreement as to what is true.
The problem is not wanting to hear the opposing view. Unfortunately, more often than not, argue past each other. Not understanding the point of issue/difference. If we cannot agree, at the very least know why we do not. I attempt to address what I think is the point of disagreement. Maybe I might actually miss it.

When arguments are repeated back and fourth both sides are missing it.

[One Bad Pig]

No it wasn't. Jesus had a physical body. He even said he was not a ghost to the apostles when he came back and ate food with them and had thomas touch his wounds. A resurrection without a body is an oxymoron.

Ghandi was a spiritual man. Doesn't mean he didn't have a body, does it?

No fair bringing up the gospels. Don'tchaknow they don't count?

[RhinestoneCowboy]

No - if the night of the 14th was the fifteenth, it would not be called the 14th. The night of the 14th cannot start when the date is already the fifteenth.

No - twilight in Hebrew is עֲלָטָה {alatah} dusk, or colloquially, on occasion, נֶשֶׁף {nesheph} denoting the evening breeze. Leviticus states that the lambs are to be slaughtered at dusk and eaten during the night of the fourteenth (and as the charts I provided show - that would be at the start of the day. There's even a division of blue and black stripes on the chart for John to show when the night and daylight occur). Hebrew practice by the first century had extended the time from dusk on the fourteenth to late afternoon on the fourteenth (a span of roughly 24 hours.)

You will of course fail to note that the Biblical record shows that passover lamb is to be slaughtered and eaten on the day of preparation, following which is the seven day festival of unleavened bread. Modern Israel doesn't follow that schedule ... if you want to call that wrong, go talk to them about it.

Of course, they could not have asked that question when the day first started now, could they? If they did, your house of cards would be blown away.

and yet the day of preparation - the day when Jesus was executed - is the 14th. My charts of both Mark's and John's record demonstrate the fallacy of your assertions well enough.



I posted the charts that convert John's text to graphics. Obviously, the Pharisees chose to eat the Passover during the second evening of the fourteenth, rather than during the first evening - there was no reason not to.



Twilight of the 14th is on the 14th - twilight on the 15th is the next day - that is why the numbers of the days are different. Twilight on the 14th extends from just after 6pm (maybe as late as 7) til 8 or 8:30 pm. Which is to say, two to two-and-a-half hours after the start of the day.

The "Lord's Passover" in Leviticus 23:5 is the sacrifice, not the Passover meal. The Passover meal is eaten on the 15th of Nisan (evening of the 14th). Just ask any Jew who practices Passover. The synoptics maintain that Jesus was executed on Nisan 15 while John says he was executed on Nisan 14. Mark 14:12 proves this was Nisan 14 since it was the day the lambs were being slaughtered and preparations for the Passover were being made. The lambs were sacrificed during the daytime on Nisan 14 then they were cooked and prepared for the evening Passover meal which was Nisan 15.

[37818]

well gorsh, how could that be? how can flesh be in heaven if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom? could it be that you are being too literal?

OK. I fail to understand your objection to my explanation that resurrected bodies are bloodless. Please explain how and why I have it wrong. You are contending I have it wrong about the resurrected bodies of Jesus and the saved. Please explain why.

[RhinestoneCowboy]

As for what the Pharisees believed about "bodies," Josephus says they were "other" bodies, not physically raised corpses.

"and yet allow, that to act what is right, or the contrary, is principally in the power of men, although fate does cooperate in every action. They say that all souls are incorruptible, but that the souls of good men only are removed into other bodies,—but that the souls of bad men are subject to eternal punishment." http://lexundria.com/j_bj/2.163/wst

Paul says these were "spiritual bodies" in heaven. That's why he says that Jesus "appeared" in visions/revelations instead of physical encounters.

[37818]

The "Lord's Passover" in Leviticus 23:5 is the sacrifice, not the Passover meal. The Passover meal is eaten on the 15th of Nisan. Just ask any Jew who practices Passover. The synoptics maintain that Jesus was executed on Nisan 15 while John says he was executed on Nisan 14.

Well that is a common misinterpretation of John 19:14. The truth is, beginning on the 15th, there are seven days of Passover preparation and sacrifices (Numbers 28:24). The actual Pass Over event took place that night of the 15th in Egypt (Exodus 12:13). As a Christian I am in a small minority which has that understanding of John.

Also the feast of unleavened bread had for some time also been called the Passover (Ezekiel 45:21-23; Luke 22:1).