Who buried Jesus?

[RhinestoneCowboy]

The Passover lamb is eaten on the 14th Nisan - not on the 15th, the day of the Passover fast.


Exodus 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.1 7 “Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8 They shall eat the flesh that night,
Leviticus 23:5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover.

"That night" is the beginning of the next day - Nisan 15! Remember how Jewish "days" go from sundown to sundown?

The 15th is not the day of preparation. Each of the gospels declares Jesus was executed on the day of preparation.

The synoptics very clearly say that the Last Supper was a Passover Seder and that the "Day of Preparation" (the day they do the slaughter in the temple) was the day before the crucifixion. John has Jesus killed at the same time the lambs were being slaughtered in the temple, which means it was the day of Preparation (for the Passover) - John 19:14.

John 19:14 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour.3 He said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” 15 They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?”
Luke 23:54 It was the day of Preparation, and the Sabbath was beginning.7 55 The women who had come with him from Galilee followed and saw the tomb and how his body was laid
Mark 15:42 since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus

Matthew 26:17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?”
Matthew 27:62 The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate 63 and said, “Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive, ‘After three days I will rise.’

John 18:28
"Then the Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover."

In the synoptics Jesus eats the Passover BEFORE being turned over to Pilate!

Textual analysis gives seppa to your claim.

From whence this definition of opsios that you provide?

Mickelson Strongs
G3798 ὄψιος opsios (o'-psiy-os) adj.
1. late.
2. (feminine, as noun) afternoon (early eve) or nightfall (later eve).

http://lexiconcordance.com/greek/3798.html

SUMMARISING

The passover lamb is prepared and eaten on the 14th day of Nisan.
It is eaten in the evening: which, in Hebrew, could be between 6pm and last light, or between 3pm and 6pm
The passover lamb could therefore be eaten at either end of the 14th day of Nisan.
The 14th day of Nisan is not a sabbath: the 15th is.

John still contradicts the synoptics! In Mark, Jesus only "enters" with his disciples in the "evening." They eat later (after sundown) which is how you Passover. This is the beginning of Nisan 15 - Leviticus 23:6.

Here is a timeline:
https://books.google.com/books?id=si...page&q&f=false

[tabibito]

In 33 A.D. the Passover first feast day "sabbath" the 15th fell on the 7th day Sabbath. Friday, the 6th day, being held to be the 14th. The whole point of the acceptance of 33 A.D. is to have the 14th on the 6th day of the week.

Do you think water can be boiled faster than what is physically possible? That fact that the women had to take time to prepare spices is glossed over.

And according to Luke, that first day of the week, Sunday was the third day after the crucifixion. That would make Friday, the Preparation day, the first day after those events.

The women saw the place where he was buried and then went to prepare the spices. As far as that goes, it wouldn't matter which day it happened: the preparation was completed before the start of the Sabbath.

Luke 23:53 ... he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

The third day after the crucifixion (which is CORRECT - that is what "on the third day" means in Koine Greek) would make Thursday the day of crucifixion: 1st day after: FRIDAY ... 2nd day after: SATURDAY ... 3rd day after: SUNDAY.

In modern Greek usage the word "Preparation," Παρασκευή is the name of the day of the week Παρασκευή, our Friday.

Speakers of modern Greek cannot read Koine Greek. Not to mention that the gospels refer to the Hebrew day of preparation - which has nothing to do with Greek day names anyway.

None of the gospel accounts say the crucifixion took place on the 6th day, being the Preparation. In all the accounts the Preparation day is mentioned after Jesus had died. Only John (19:14) refers to that morning, our 6 A.M., as a preparation of the Passover. (There were 7 days of this, Numbers 28:24.)

How do you interpret

And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre. 62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the ...

Was Christ crucified (according to Matthew 27: 61-62) on the day before the-day-after-the-day-of-preparation or not?

[tabibito]

1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. And supper being ended …

Before the feast (festival, ἑορτή) of the Passover Jesus knew that he was to depart, and supper being ended. John’s record showing that the supper was before the day of the Passover feast, it would seem that (the meal being supper) this occurred early on the 14th Nisan – the next morning Jesus is taken before Pilate.

And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

The trial before Pilate occurs on the day of preparation of Passover .

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,

John not only shows that the Jews objected to the bodies of the executed persons being left on the cross because the next day would be the sabbath, he identifies it as a HIGH Sabbath – not the weekly Sabbath.

So I will ask: how does John’s gospel conflict with the synoptics with regard to the day of preparation being the day that Christ was executed?

[Teallaura]

Pointless comment: technically, no one 'buried' Jesus - His body was entombed, not buried.

[RhinestoneCowboy]

1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. And supper being ended …

Before the feast (festival, ἑορτή) of the Passover Jesus knew that he was to depart, and supper being ended. John’s record showing that the supper was before the day of the Passover feast, it would seem that (the meal being supper) this occurred early on the 14th Nisan – the next morning Jesus is taken before Pilate.

In contrast, the synoptic accounts hold that it was the Passover meal which would have been eaten in the evening (beginning of the 15th of Nisan). Jesus is then arrested, tried before the Sanhedrin and in the morning he is brought to Pilate and crucified then dies around 3pm (still the 15th of Nisan).

And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

The trial before Pilate occurs on the day of preparation of Passover .

Mark 15:42 says the that the "Day of Preparation" was not for the Passover but for the Sabbath meaning it was still the 15th of Nisan.

John 18:28
"Then the Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover."

In the synoptics Jesus eats the Passover BEFORE being turned over to Pilate - Mk. 14:12-17, Mt. 26:17-21, Lk. 22:7-15!

Why, in John, are those Jews so concerned about eating the Passover meal, when according to the synoptics, they had already eaten it the night before?

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,

John not only shows that the Jews objected to the bodies of the executed persons being left on the cross because the next day would be the sabbath, he identifies it as a HIGH Sabbath – not the weekly Sabbath.

Those aren't mutually exclusive though. The "high" Sabbath in this case happens to fall on the weekly Sabbath i.e. Saturday. A "high" Sabbath only means a sabbath during a Holy week.

So I will ask: how does John’s gospel conflict with the synoptics with regard to the day of preparation being the day that Christ was executed?

John and the synoptics both agree that Jesus was crucified on a Friday but the issue is that while the synoptics also set the Passover on Friday, John contradicts this and sets the Passover on Saturday.

[37818]

1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. And supper being ended …

Before the feast (festival, ἑορτή) of the Passover Jesus knew that he was to depart, and supper being ended. John’s record showing that the supper was before the day of the Passover feast, it would seem that (the meal being supper) this occurred early on the 14th Nisan – the next morning Jesus is taken before Pilate.

We need to identify our points of disagreement.

John 13:1,
. . . Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. . . .

Now I understand that to be before the 15th. I also understand Mark 14:12 to be on the 14th.

John 13:2,
. . . And supper being ended, . . .

To be in the same time frame as Luke 22:20-21.

Luke 22:20,
. . . after supper, . . .

This making that next day the 15th being after that evening (Mark 14:17).

[37818]

Pointless comment: technically, no one 'buried' Jesus - His body was entombed, not buried.

Then, I guess you would say 1 Corinthians 15 is wrong saying, ". . . And that he was buried, . . ."

[Doug Shaver]

And that's relevant because...?

It depends on what "He already has his mind made up on the issues" is supposed to prove.

[Doug Shaver]

Who said Christian apologist didn't have their mind's made up on a topic.

How is it relevant that your adversaries are doing it?

[tabibito]

The Passover lamb is eaten on the 14th Nisan - not on the 15th, the day of the Passover fast.
Exodus 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.1 7 “Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8 They shall eat the flesh that night,
Leviticus 23:5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover.

Twilight will begin just after 6pm
"That night" is the beginning of the next day - Nisan 15! Remember how Jewish "days" go from sundown to sundown?

Ah yes: twilight and night of the fourteenth is indeed the fifteenth. I'm not sure which universe that might happen in, but it is assuredly correct: if it is twilight on the fourteenth in this universe, twilight will be the first evening (sundown) of the day, not the second (day's end 3-6 pm) - given that the day starts at 6pm, that would make it at the start of the day, and the night of the fourteenth is stipulated. It won't be the fifteenth.

I cited Leviticus to eliminate any chance of ambiguity: Leviticus 23:5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover.
Twilight will begin just after 6pm (just after the start of the day) - the night (of the fourteenth) will follow hard on the heels of twilight.

[Tassman]

There is less evidence for the hypothesis that the gospels were written by non-eyewitnesses, or doesn't include eyewitness testimony and only includes stories and anecdotes than there is for the opposite hypothesis.

Not so. There is no evidence that the gospels were written by eyewitnesses. Even Bauckham’s much lauded attempt to use Papias as proof of eyewitness reportage can only come up with 2nd and 3rd hand reports.

[tabibito]

That the synoptic gospels were not written by first generation (eye witness) chroniclers would seem to be supported by evidence from Luke - however, accepting that evidence as valid won't suit the atheist spin.
Paul's letters they can't do anything about, because evidence in support of Paul being the author is not considered to be in question.
Internal evidence from the epistle to the Hebrews that it was written prior to AD 70 is hand-waved away as irrelevant.

[Tassman]

That the synoptic gospels were not written by first generation (eye witness) chroniclers would seem to be supported by evidence from Luke -

Agreed!

Paul's letters they can't do anything about, because evidence in support of Paul being the author is not considered to be in question.
Internal evidence from the epistle to the Hebrews that it was written prior to AD 70 is hand-waved away as irrelevant.

There’s no question that the seven authentic letters were written by Paul. But they give no indication as to whether Jesus’ tomb was empty three days later. Nor do they indicate whether Jesus was physically seen by his followers afterwards or whether it was in the form of a vision. But we’ve been through all this tabibito.

[Aractus]

Agreed!

There’s no question that the seven authentic letters were written by Paul. But they give no indication as to whether Jesus’ tomb was empty three days later. Nor do they indicate whether Jesus was physically seen by his followers afterwards or whether it was in the form of a vision. But we’ve been through all this tabibito.

It's misleading to say there are seven authentic letters. 2 Thessalonians would be considered authentic if it didn't duplicate 1 Thessalonians. Maybe Paul sent one letter, he didn't think they got it so wrote it again? And 2 Corinthians is not a letter, it's an amalgamation of at least 2-3 different letters. Some of the others are disputable, including Hebrews, the only ones known for sure not to have been written by Paul are the Pastorals. With all that said, everything interesting that he writes are in those 6 letters anyway (I excluded 2 Cor in that count), so it doesn't matter too much about the others. Other than the Pastorals of course - The author of 1 Tim is quite the misogynist.

[tabibito]

Why did you ignore the rest of my post? There is an explicit contradiction in John 18:28 where the Jews are worried about eating the Passover that, according to the synoptics, they had already eaten the night before.

And the "Lord's Passover" in Leviticus 23:5 is just when they did the slaughter. In verse 6 it says the 15th (nighttime) is when the Passover meal began.

What it says is: 5 “The Lord’s Passover is to begin on the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight. Twilight on the fourteenth is on the fourteenth: it is around 7-7:30 pm on the fourteenth, and the 14th started roughly 1 to 1 and a half hours earlier, at 6pm. (I begin to see why some Bible passages reiterate the same statement time and again.)

"On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Festival of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast."

And what does this have to say about the rituals of the fourteenth?
YET AGAIN

Exodus 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight (1 - 1+1/2 hours after the start of day, which is followed by the night of the 14th) .1 7 “Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8 They shall eat the flesh that night, (the night of the 14th, 2 hours or so after the beginning of the 14th)

28 Then Jesus was led from Caiaphas to the governor’s headquarters early in the morning. The Jews did not go into the headquarters, to avoid becoming unclean and unable to eat the Passover meal. 29 So Pilate came out to them and asked, “What accusation are you bringing against this man?”

If you had paid attention to my prior posts, you would have been aware that (by the 1st Century) the Passover meal was to be eaten in the evening - and whether it was the first evening or the second didn't really matter (provided that it was on the 14th). The logistics of slaughtering the requisite number of lambs in the prescribed manner made it impossible for the provisions for the night of the fourteenth to be met. Josephus records the slaughtering (200 000 + lambs) as taking place over a 24 hour period.