Who buried Jesus?

[RhinestoneCowboy]

What it says is: 5 “The Lord’s Passover is to begin on the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight. Twilight on the fourteenth is on the fourteenth: it is around 7-7:30 pm on the fourteenth, and the 14th started roughly 1 to 1 and a half hours earlier, at 6pm.(I begin to see why some Bible passages reiterate the same statement time and again.

And what does this have to say about the rituals of the fourteenth?
YET AGAIN

Exodus 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight (1 - 1+1/2 hours after the start of day, which is followed by the night of the 14th) .1 7 “Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8 They shall eat the flesh that night, (the night of the 14th, 2 hours or so after the beginning of the 14th)

"The Hebrew word 'ad, "until," in Exodus 12:6, 18 does not mean, "before," or "up to a certain point but not beyond." It has a meaning parallel to "until" as found in the verse: "He (Jonathan) and his sons were priests to the tribe of the Danites until the day of the captivity of the land" (Judges 18:30b). Were Jonathan and his sons priests only up to the day before what is called "the day of the captivity of the land"? Or, were they priests even on that evently day? A plain reading of the text would show that "until" here includes at least part of "the day of the captivity of the land." In the same manner of usage "until the fourteenth" includes the day, 14 Nisan, until and including the time of the slaughtering of the lambs (verse 6)....."The passover" refers to the paschal lamb offering on the afternoon of the fourteenth. It is followed that evening (15 Nisan) with the consuming of the sacrifice....

Joshua 5:10-11
"While the Israelites were camped in Gilgal they kept the passover in the evening on the fourteenth day of the month in the plains of Jericho. On the day after the passover, on that very day, they ate the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and parched grain."

Therefore, the eating of the paschal lamb can only have taken place on the night of 15 Nisan after the sunset of 14 Nisan." - Gerald Sigal, https://books.google.com/books?id=0U...s%2023&f=false

28 Then Jesus was led from Caiaphas to the governor’s headquarters early in the morning. The Jews did not go into the headquarters, to avoid becoming unclean and unable to eat the Passover meal. 29 So Pilate came out to them and asked, “What accusation are you bringing against this man?”

If you had paid attention to my prior posts, you would have been aware that (by the 1st Century) the Passover meal was to be eaten in the evening - and whether it was the first evening or the second didn't really matter (provided that it was on the 14th).

You're still ignoring the contradiction between John and the synoptics which is what got this started in the first place. In John, Jesus is handed over to Pilate while the Jews are worried about eating the Passover. In the synoptics, Jesus eats the Passover before being turned over to Pilate. This contradiction cannot be reconciled.

The logistics of slaughtering the requisite number of lambs in the prescribed manner made it impossible for the provisions for the night of the fourteenth to be met. Josephus records the slaughtering (200 000 + lambs) as taking place over a 24 hour period.

And Josephus had a habit of exaggerating. Here, Josephus says the slaughter took two hours so I'm not sure where you're getting the "24 hour" period from.

"So these high priests, upon the coming of that feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour till the eleventh, but so that a company not less than ten belong to every sacrifice (for it is not lawful for them to feast singly by themselves), and many of us are twenty in a company." http://lexundria.com/j_bj/6.423/wst

[tabibito]

For pity's sake

The night of the fourteenth starts on the fourteenth and it ends on the fourteenth - 12 hours before the date changes to the fifteenth.

[tabibito]

"The Hebrew word 'ad, "until," in Exodus 12:6, 18 does not mean, "before," or "up to a certain point but not beyond." It has a meaning parallel to "until" as found in the verse: "He (Jonathan) and his sons were priests to the tribe of the Danites until the day of the captivity of the land" (Judges 18:30b). Were Jonathan and his sons priests only up to the day before what is called "the day of the captivity of the land"? Or, were they priests even on that evently day? A plain reading of the text would show that "until" here includes at least part of "the day of the captivity of the land."

So far it is correct - "until after" is a more exact reading.

In the same manner of usage "until the fourteenth" includes the day, 14 Nisan, until and including the time of the slaughtering of the lambs (verse 6)....."The passover" refers to the paschal lamb offering on the afternoon of the fourteenth. It is followed that evening (15 Nisan) with the consuming of the sacrifice....

Joshua 5:10-11
"While the Israelites were camped in Gilgal they kept the passover in the evening on the fourteenth day of the month in the plains of Jericho. On the day after the passover, on that very day, they ate the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and parched grain."

Therefore, the eating of the paschal lamb can only have taken place on the night of 15 Nisan after the sunset of 14 Nisan." - Gerald Sigal,[https://books.google.com/books?id=0U...s%2023&f=false

Despite the law specifying that the lamb is to be eaten on the 14th, they eat it on the 15th - a designated day of fasting. Really? Despite the fact that when the night ends, it is still the 14th. Really?

In John, Jesus is handed over to Pilate while the Jews are worried about eating the Passover. In the synoptics, Jesus eats the Passover before being turned over to Pilate. This contradiction cannot be reconciled.

A contradiction that doesn't exist cannot be reconciled, true enough. First century practice made it possible to eat the Passover on either of two evenings, both being on the 14th of Nisan. Some celebrate the Passover during the first evening of the day (nightfall), others celebrate the Passover on the second evening of the day (day's end) some 21 hours later.

And Josephus had a habit of exaggerating. Here, Josephus says the slaughter took two hours so I'm not sure where you're getting the "24 hour" period from.

"So these high priests, upon the coming of that feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour till the eleventh, but so that a company not less than ten belong to every sacrifice (for it is not lawful for them to feast singly by themselves), and many of us are twenty in a company." http://lexundria.com/j_bj/6.423/wst

200 000 + lambs slaughtered in a span of two hours - no. High priests performing sacrifice for themselves (with a substantially reduced number of sacrifices to be made) - yes.
Josephus would not have made a particularly large error in his count ... this was a commissioned estimate (a census) of the number of people in the city, resident and pilgrim, at the time of Passover. The estimate was based on 10 people per lamb (that is, he got a count of the lambs from the high priests and multiplied by 10).

[RhinestoneCowboy]

Despite the law specifying that the lamb is to be eaten on the 14th, they eat it on the 15th - a designated day of fasting. Really? Despite the fact that when the night ends, it is still the 14th. Really?

Where does the text say that? According to my reading and basically every Jew who practices the custom, the lambs are slaughtered during the day of the 14th then eaten at nighttime when it has become the 15th. The synoptics represent the Passover meal as a seder since preparations are made - Mk. 14:12. The seder is eaten after sundown on the 14th meaning the beginning of Nisan 15.

A contradiction that doesn't exist cannot be reconciled, true enough. First century practice made it possible to eat the Passover on either of two evenings, both being on the 14th of Nisan. Some celebrate the Passover during the first evening of the day (nightfall), others celebrate the Passover on the second evening of the day (day's end) some 21 hours later.

This doesn't get you out of the problem. John clearly states that when Jesus was being given over to Pilate the Jews were worried about eating the Passover. According to the synoptics, however, the Passover was eaten the night BEFORE Jesus was handed over to Pilate. How do you reconcile this?

200 000 + lambs slaughtered in a span of two hours - no. High priests performing sacrifice for themselves (with a substantially reduced number of sacrifices to be made) - yes. Josephus would not have made a particularly large error in his count ... this was a commissioned estimate (a census) of the number of people in the city, resident and pilgrim, at the time of Passover. The estimate was based on 10 people per lamb (that is, he got a count of the lambs from the high priests and multiplied by 10).

Sure but it still goes to show that the 14th is when the lambs were slaughtered and sacrificed, not consumed.

[37818]

I know, I was being sarcastic, he wasn't said to have been buried, he was said to have been entombed. And then, 3 days hence, his heart began to beat again and to send 3 day old dead blood to his 3 day old un-oxegenated dead brain and he came back to life, good as new, got up and walked through the stone door of the tomb and headed off to Emmaus for some unexplained reason.

Ah, no. His blood was poured out on the cross. He was resurrected by (Romans 8:11) the Spirit of God without the blood. He went bodily into Heaven without blood (1 Corinthians 15:50). The atonement was completed on the cross before He physically died (Isaiah 53:10-12; Hebrews 9:14-24; John 19:28-30; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:5).

[Tassman]

Ah, no. His blood was poured out on the cross. He was resurrected by (Romans 8:11) the Spirit of God without the blood. He went bodily into Heaven without blood (1 Corinthians 15:50).

Hence the resurrected body of Jesus as far as Paul was concerned was not of flesh and blood, which conforms to the visionary Damascene experience he had and the similar 'seeings' of the apostles in the 1 Cor 15 passage known as the ‘little creed’.

The atonement was completed on the cross before He physically died (Isaiah 53:10-12; Hebrews 9:14-24; John 19:28-30; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:5).

These references are not Pauline and do not refer to the nature of Jesus’ post entombed body in any event.

[tabibito]

Where does the text say that? According to my reading and basically every Jew who practices the custom, the lambs are slaughtered during the day of the 14th then eaten at nighttime when it has become the 15th. The synoptics represent the Passover meal as a seder since preparations are made - Mk. 14:12. The seder is eaten after sundown on the 14th meaning the beginning of Nisan 15.

Exodus 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.1 7 “Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8 They shall eat the flesh that night,
Leviticus 23:5 on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover.

At twilight on the date according to Leviticus 23:5 - the fourteenth. NOT the 15th. Twilight on the 14th, the lamb is to be slaughtered, night of the fourteenth the lamb is to be eaten. The night of the fourteenth is shortly after the beginning of the calendar day of the 14th, it does not come at the end of the day.
Lambs to be slaughtered at twilight on the fourteenth (which is the start of the day) and eaten on that night (which comes hard on the heels of twilight). The little play on the nuance of "until" doesn't work when twilight of the fourteenth is specified as the time that the lamb is to be slaughtered.

This doesn't get you out of the problem. John clearly states that when Jesus was being given over to Pilate the Jews were worried about eating the Passover. According to the synoptics, however, the Passover was eaten the night BEFORE Jesus was handed over to Pilate. How do you reconcile this?

It has been already been stated: by the first century, there was flexibility with regard to which of the "evenings" of the day was acceptable for eating the passover lamb. It was perfectly acceptable to choose the 14th to eat the passover.

Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Israel today celebrates Passover as a seven-day festival, in contrast to the eight day festival stipulated by Leviticus 23, the passover being now incorporated into the 7 day festival of unleavened bread (matzah).

[tabibito]

John Crucifixion Timeline.jpg

[37818]

Hence the resurrected body of Jesus as far as Paul was concerned was not of flesh and blood, which conforms to the visionary Damascene experience he had and the similar 'seeings' of the apostles in the 1 Cor 15 passage known as the ‘little creed’.



These references are not Pauline and do not refer to the nature of Jesus’ post entombed body in any event.

Jesus resurrected body was of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39). Not flesh with blood.

[37818]

Scripture Verse: Exodus 12:6, Tanakh Online, Chabad.org

. . .And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon. . . .

© Copyright Original Source

Exodus 12:6, John Darby Translation,
. . . And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings. . . .

[tabibito]

And the Septuagint has "And it shall be kept by you till the fourteenth of this month, and all the multitude of the congregation of the children of Israel shall kill it toward evening."

Discrepancies between the current Hebrew text and the text as used by the second temple are documented in manuscripts from the Qumram finds. The Septuagint seems closer to the second temple's material than current Hebrew texts, but there is also more than one version of the Septuagint.

[Sparko]

Jesus resurrected body was of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39). Not flesh with blood.

This always bugs me.

If I said I was flesh and blood, would that mean I didn't have any bones?

Saying Jesus was flesh and bone just means he was there in a body. It doesn't mean he didn't have blood. flesh and blood and flesh and bone are both idioms for the same thing: human body.

[37818]

This always bugs me.

If I said I was flesh and blood, would that mean I didn't have any bones?

Saying Jesus was flesh and bone just means he was there in a body. It doesn't mean he didn't have blood. flesh and blood and flesh and bone are both idioms for the same thing: human body.

I was responding to Tassman. Not you my friend.

1 Corinthians 15:50,
. . .Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. . . .

And Jesus is physically a man in heaven for us (1 Timothy 2:5.)

[One Bad Pig]

I was responding to Tassman. Not you my friend.

It doesn't matter whom you were responding to - you were making an unnecessary distinction.

[RhinestoneCowboy]

Exodus 12:6 and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.1 7 “Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8 They shall eat the flesh that night,
Leviticus 23:5 on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover.

At twilight on the date according to Leviticus 23:5 - the fourteenth. NOT the 15th. Twilight on the 14th, the lamb is to be slaughtered, night of the fourteenth the lamb is to be eaten. The night of the fourteenth is shortly after the beginning of the calendar day of the 14th, it does not come at the end of the day.
Lambs to be slaughtered at twilight on the fourteenth (which is the start of the day) and eaten on that night (which comes hard on the heels of twilight). The little play on the nuance of "until" doesn't work when twilight of the fourteenth is specified as the time that the lamb is to be slaughtered.

The NIGHT of the 14th is the 15th!!! Twilight (the Hebrew word is actually for "evening" when Passover is consumed) indicates the end of the 14th, beginning of the 15th. Are you trying to claim that the lambs were slaughtered on the 13th and you mean at nighttime (beginning of the 14th) is when they eat the Passover? The lambs are slaughtered during the day on the 14th then eaten at nighttime when it becomes the 15th. This is how all Jews practice Passover today so are you saying that they're all wrong?

See what Mark says in 14:12 - "On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, his disciples said to him, “Where do you want us to go and make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

They eat the Passover Seder later that evening (Mk. 14:16-17 beginning of Nisan 15) then Jesus is executed the next day which is still Nisan 15. Contrast that with John who has Jesus executed the same day the lambs are slaughtered (John 19:14 - Preparation for the Passover) - Nisan 14.

It has been already been stated: by the first century, there was flexibility with regard to which of the "evenings" of the day was acceptable for eating the passover lamb. It was perfectly acceptable to choose the 14th to eat the passover.

But John contradicts which night the synoptics say the Jews eat the Passover! You can't have them eat it the night before Jesus goes before Pilate (synoptic version) then have them wondering how they're going to eat it the next day as John 18:28 tells us.

Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Israel today celebrates Passover as a seven-day festival, in contrast to the eight day festival stipulated by Leviticus 23, the passover being now incorporated into the 7 day festival of unleavened bread (matzah).

Twilight/evening on the 14th indicates the beginning of the 15th.