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Who buried Jesus?

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    No it wasn't. Jesus had a physical body. He even said he was not a ghost to the apostles when he came back and ate food with them and had thomas touch his wounds. A resurrection without a body is an oxymoron.

    Ghandi was a spiritual man. Doesn't mean he didn't have a body, does it?
    I have a feeling Paul says somewhere it is a physical body (cannot remember where). Not the original body, though, but a new "heavenly" body.

    I get the impression a belief in ghosts was common back then, and eating of food was to show Jesus was not a ghost. I suspect this was later embellishment, but that said, whatever Paul saw, he was convinced that it was not a ghost, so whatever he later described was quite different to an insubstantial ghost.
    My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

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    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Well that is a common misinterpretation of John 19:14. The truth is, beginning on the 15th, there are seven days of Passover preparation and sacrifices (Numbers 28:24). The actual Pass Over event took place that night of the 15th in Egypt (Exodus 12:13). As a Christian I am in a small minority which has that understanding of John.
      It's not a misinterpretation. It's literally how every Jew practices Passover. Just ask them or check Jewish resources online. The Passover Seder is eaten the night of the 14th which is now 15 Nisan since Jewish days go from evening to evening.

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      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post


        No it wasn't. Jesus had a physical body. He even said he was not a ghost to the apostles when he came back and ate food with them and had thomas touch his wounds. A resurrection without a body is an oxymoron.

        Ghandi was a spiritual man. Doesn't mean he didn't have a body, does it?
        Interesting how those amazing physical encounters went unmentioned by Paul, Mark and Matthew. Gosh, it almost looks like legendary growth.

        And as for the meaning of the word spiritual, (pneumatikos) it has a wide range of interpretation that doesn't necessarily support the orthodox apologetic you're trying to maintain. Jubilees 23:31 and 1 Enoch 102-104 seem to speak of the resurrection of souls or spirits. No "body" required. It's important though to note that Paul and other Pharisees thought there were different "types" of bodies - 1 Cor 15:40-44, Josephus Jewish War - 2.163. Therefore, having a "body" doesn't necessarily mean it was a physically raised corpse that could be touched. It seems to be a different spiritual entity in heaven.
        Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 06-28-2017, 10:30 AM.

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        • Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
          Interesting how those amazing physical encounters went unmentioned by Paul, Mark and Matthew. Gosh, it almost looks like legendary growth.
          That's an awesome way to deal with contrary evidence. Don't like something? Wave the "legendary growth" wand at it and watch it magically disappear!
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            That's an awesome way to deal with contrary evidence. Don't like something? Wave the "legendary growth" wand at it and watch it magically disappear!
            You mean contradictory evidence which coincidentally aligns with legendary growth over time since the amazing physical encounters only appear in the latest sources? Do you consider the reports where Romulus or Asclepius "appear" or are "raised from the dead" to be evidence?

            Special pleading.....3.....2.....1

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            • Paul says "no flesh (σάρξ sarx) shall glory before God" - 1 Cor 1:29

              "flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" - 1 Cor 15:50

              we "put off the body of the flesh" in Col. 2:11

              Luke, on the other hand says, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." - Luke 24:39

              Paul and Luke had a different idea of what Jesus' resurrection body was like.

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              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                No fair bringing up the gospels. Don'tchaknow they don't count?
                oh I forgot the first rule of cherrypicking 101: reject any information that proves you wrong.
                Last edited by Sparko; 06-28-2017, 10:50 AM.

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                • Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                  It's not a misinterpretation. It's literally how every Jew practices Passover. Just ask them or check Jewish resources online. The Passover Seder is eaten the night of the 14th which is now 15 Nisan since Jewish days go from evening to evening.
                  I think you missunderstood, I was not disagreeing with the Jewish observance of the Passover on the evening of the 15th. Which I believe Jesus and His disciples also observed (Mark 14:12, 17). All I was saying is the interpretation that John placed Christ's crucifixion on the 14th is a mistaken interpreation, as I explained. John's view agrees with the 15th date of Christ's crucifixion (John 19:14; Numbers 28:24; Ezekiel 45:21-23; Luke 22:1).
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    OK. I fail to understand your objection to my explanation that resurrected bodies are bloodless. Please explain how and why I have it wrong. You are contending I have it wrong about the resurrected bodies of Jesus and the saved. Please explain why.
                    You said FLESH and blood could not inherit the kingdom and used that to say that blood cannot be in the body. Well gorsh, if blood is rejected then so is flesh! FLESH and blood?

                    Flesh and bone is the same idiom as Flesh and blood. It means the same thing. It is not literally just flesh and blood or flesh and bone. It means a physical body. Of course physical bodies will inherit the kingdom. You just took one word "blood" and made it so literal that you lose the whole point of the verses.

                    I believe the resurrection bodies will be completely human. Just perfected. God have us blood for a reason. It moves energy and oxygen around our bodies. Why would he remove blood? That is idiotic.

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                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      oh I forgot the first rule of cherrypicking 101: reject any information that prove you wrong.
                      Later anonymous secondhand or worse hearsay doesn't "prove me wrong." Paul is the earliest and only firsthand account so you can't use later testimony (that is not firsthand) and say it trumps the former. Paul says the appearances were visions, not physical interactions with a revived corpse so it looks like Paul proves you wrong.

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                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        I think you missunderstood, I was not disagreeing with the Jewish observance of the Passover on the evening of the 15th. Which I believe Jesus and His disciples also observed (Mark 14:12, 17). All I was saying is the interpretation that John placed Christ's crucifixion on the 14th is a mistaken interpreation, as I explained. John's view agrees with the 15th date of Christ's crucifixion (John 19:14; Numbers 28:24; Ezekiel 45:21-23; Luke 22:1).
                        In John 19:14 if it was the day of preparation for the Passover that means it was Nisan 14. The passage says it was "about noon." Jesus is executed soon afterwards (John 19:17-37) so it was not Nisan 15 yet.

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                        • Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                          Paul says "no flesh (σάρξ sarx) shall glory before God" - 1 Cor 1:29

                          "flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" - 1 Cor 15:50

                          we "put off the body of the flesh" in Col. 2:11

                          Luke, on the other hand says, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." - Luke 24:39

                          Paul and Luke had a different idea of what Jesus' resurrection body was like.
                          No Christian agrees with your idea that Paul and Luke differ on the matter of the bodily resurrection. They didn't.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            No Christian agrees with your idea that Paul and Luke differ on the matter of the bodily resurrection. They didn't.
                            I know they don't agree. It's because it refutes their orthodox view. No surprise there!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                              The "Lord's Passover" in Leviticus 23:5 is the sacrifice, not the Passover meal. The Passover meal is eaten on the 15th of Nisan (evening of the 14th). Just ask any Jew who practices Passover. The synoptics maintain that Jesus was executed on Nisan 15 while John says he was executed on Nisan 14. Mark 14:12 proves this was Nisan 14 since it was the day the lambs were being slaughtered and preparations for the Passover were being made. The lambs were sacrificed during the daytime on Nisan 14 then they were cooked and prepared for the evening Passover meal which was Nisan 15.
                              Exodus 12:6-8 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike [it] on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread

                              In the evening that the lamb is to be slaughtered, and it is to be eaten in that night. The night of the 15th would be the NEXT night, not the same night - even if the lamb was slaughtered during the second evening.

                              Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.
                              This one doesn't even admit the possibility that the passover is on the 15th.
                              Numbers 9:3-5 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it. ... 5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai
                              ALL the rites of passover on the 14th. They kept the Passover on the 14th - no mention of any part of the Passover being celebrated on the 15th.

                              The passover celebration of today is not the same as in the time of Moses, nor is it the same as was done 2000 years ago.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                                In John 19:14 if it was the day of preparation for the Passover that means it was Nisan 14. The passage says it was "about noon." Jesus is executed soon afterwards (John 19:17-37) so it was not Nisan 15 yet.
                                That is what I was saying is the common missinterpretation. You are repeating it. If you choose to reject that interpreation that John agrees with the 15th crucifixion, that is your prerogative. I explained that interpretation (Luke 22:1; John 19:14; Numbers 28:24).
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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