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Who buried Jesus?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    I wasn't commenting on whether the sources are in agreement. I was commenting on their reliability.
    Your lack of belief in those documents reliability does not make them unreliable. What evidence is there to show anything documented by any of those 4 is not true?
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Your lack of belief in those documents reliability does not make them unreliable.
      And I've never said it did.

      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      What evidence is there to show anything documented by any of those 4 is not true?
      For what do I need such evidence?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post


        For what do I need such evidence?
        So are you saying your denial of the reliability of the NT is without any basis?
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #19
          Okay I've read through part of "Crucifixion in the Mediterranean World". Me thinks you misspoke psstein, there is no chapter on Jesus's burial - there is a section - Chapter 2/S.3.3.2, is that what you mean? It never makes mention of Josephus of Arimathea or put forward the case that Jesus was in fact buried. In fact the case that it puts forward if anything is that crucified bodies were usually left up on their crosses to rot, but were sometimes allowed to be taken down if there was a special Roman holiday coming up. That would suggest Jesus would likely have been left up on the cross until such a time as the Romans decided to let their "kinsfolk" collect the bodies of crucified victims, which could have been weeks or even months later. Am I reading that right?

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          • #20
            Seems likely to me the disciples fled Roman after Jesus was arrested for fear of being arrested themselves (as Jesus said in Mark 14:27) and all the events in the passion narrative from that point on were established from Roman practices and scripture (eg Psalm 69:21). The gospels were written decades later based on that.

            I doubt even the disciples knew who buried Jesus.
            My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

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            • #21
              You're forgetting though that James was a major apostle in the early Christian church, and a surviving family member of Jesus. Even if Peter and the other disciples didn't know where Jesus was buried, James would have known and could have told them.

              This is what CitMW quotes:

              "I have known cases when on the eve or a holiday of this kind, people who have been crucified have been taken down and their bodies delivered to their kinsfolk, because it was thought well to give them burial and allow them ordinary rites." Philo Flaccus 83.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                So are you saying your denial of the reliability of the NT is without any basis?
                I need a good reason to believe they are reliable. I have seen no good reason. That is my basis for not believing they are reliable.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                  I need a good reason to believe they are reliable. I have seen no good reason. That is my basis for not believing they are reliable.
                  I haven't seen a convincing case that the execution account is terribly unreliable. I think it has problems though, but those problems don't extend to whether or not Joseph of Arimathea took the body and buried it some place. Two of the biggest problems are: 1. Did Jesus actually die within just a few hours of being crucified? Probably not. 2. Was his body handed over to the Jews or his family for burial on the same day that he died? Probably not.

                  I'm waiting to hear back from our mutual friend psstein on this, and whether there is more in CitMW that I should look at (I read Chapter 6, the conclusion, and other sections in the book that seemed relevant such as Chapter 2 S.3.3.2). It's actually a very easy to read book, but I'm not going to read the whole thing lol.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Aractus View Post
                    You're forgetting though that James was a major apostle in the early Christian church, and a surviving family member of Jesus. Even if Peter and the other disciples didn't know where Jesus was buried, James would have known and could have told them.
                    Only if he knew and wanted to. If Jesus was dumped in a grave for criminals - which is the most likely scenario - then James may not have known where and even if he did, may have prefered to keep quiet about it.

                    In conclusion, what is the historicity of the burial account [of Jesus]? From Roman expectations, the body of Jesus and of any others crucified with him would have been left on the cross as carrion [dead and putrefying flesh] for the crows and the dogs. From Jewish expectations, would not Deuteronomy 21:22-23 have been followed? Maybe, but only the barest maybe…

                    But, even if it was, the soldiers who crucified Jesus probably would have done it, speedily and indifferently, in a necessary shallow and mounded grave rather than a rock-hewn tomb. That would mean lime, at best, and the dogs again, at worst.
                    - Dominic Crossan in Who Killed Jesus?, 187, 188 (from here)


                    With regards to the passion narrative being made up from scripture, see Ancient Christian Gospels, by Helmut Koester, page 220 onwards.
                    My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Aractus View Post
                      I haven't seen a convincing case that the execution account is terribly unreliable.
                      I have said nothing about having a convincing case for the unreliability of any portion of the gospel narratives. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't need one.

                      Of course I reject the proposition that I must believe either everything in them or nothing in them. I accept that some portions are more believable than others. But I think it reasonable to ask, of any portion that I'm told I should believe, why I should believe it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                        I have said nothing about having a convincing case for the unreliability of any portion of the gospel narratives. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't need one.

                        Of course I reject the proposition that I must believe either everything in them or nothing in them. I accept that some portions are more believable than others. But I think it reasonable to ask, of any portion that I'm told I should believe, why I should believe it.
                        Sure let me re-frame my statement to hopefully be a bit clearer. I think it's important to learn about and to study religions just as we would any other natural occurring phenomena such as language. I would agree that we can't take much of the gospel accounts as accurate, but I think it's very clear they're based on a first century preacher that we can derive some information with confidence about. There is theology enshrined into the gospels that makes that task difficult, but Jesus was certainly crucified, and was buried. If he wasn't buried I don't believe that Peter could have said with conviction that he had had a vision of Jesus (possibly the first vision, although we can't know for certain) and was alive beyond the grave. Peter of course did not visit the burial site, and even if he had it most likely was just that - a burial site and not a stone-cut tomb that he could examine to see the contents of. Had he done that he would possibly have been less convinced that he had encountered his risen Lord. It would be very hard to argue a case that Jesus was left up his cross for a year or longer and to have those accounts and the early theology that developed as a result of them.

                        I would further say that if Jesus was crucified c. 30-31 AD as is consistent with most estimates that it would place the most likely time of his birth in c. 2 BC - 1 AD, which is outside of the timeline provided by the nativities (of course).

                        By the way to psstein please let me know if I've read what I have to and can return the book as it's the only copy that the St Mark's Theological Centre has and others might want to read it!
                        Last edited by Aractus; 06-03-2017, 05:01 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                          I need a good reason to believe they are reliable. I have seen no good reason. That is my basis for not believing they are reliable.
                          That the gospel accounts where they can correspond to history do. Missing corresponding information remains missing information.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            That the gospel accounts where they can correspond to history do. Missing corresponding information remains missing information.
                            Which shows the authors had access to historical information, but not that they had access to witness accounts.
                            My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

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                            • #29
                              Since Joseph of Arimathea was a member of a group of Jewish authorities, where is the inconsistency?
                              Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Aractus View Post
                                Okay I've read through part of "Crucifixion in the Mediterranean World". Me thinks you misspoke psstein, there is no chapter on Jesus's burial - there is a section - Chapter 2/S.3.3.2, is that what you mean? It never makes mention of Josephus of Arimathea or put forward the case that Jesus was in fact buried. In fact the case that it puts forward if anything is that crucified bodies were usually left up on their crosses to rot, but were sometimes allowed to be taken down if there was a special Roman holiday coming up. That would suggest Jesus would likely have been left up on the cross until such a time as the Romans decided to let their "kinsfolk" collect the bodies of crucified victims, which could have been weeks or even months later. Am I reading that right?
                                I may have confused Granger Cook's article on the burial of Jesus with a section of the book. Chapter six has some material you may be interested in.

                                Yes, upon reviewing my copy, I confused the article with the book. The article is "Crucifixion and Burial," NTS 57, no. 2 (April 2011), 193-213.

                                There are other considerations to take into account with the gospel burial story. Byron McCane's article makes a good case for them: http://enoch2112.tripod.com/ByronBurial.htm
                                Last edited by psstein; 06-03-2017, 10:38 AM.

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