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Who buried Jesus?

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  • #31
    Cool, thanks. I'll read it and report back. :)
    Last edited by Aractus; 06-03-2017, 06:31 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Aractus View Post
      You're forgetting though that James was a major apostle in the early Christian church, and a surviving family member of Jesus. Even if Peter and the other disciples didn't know where Jesus was buried, James would have known and could have told them.

      This is what CitMW quotes:

      "I have known cases when on the eve or a holiday of this kind, people who have been crucified have been taken down and their bodies delivered to their kinsfolk, because it was thought well to give them burial and allow them ordinary rites." Philo Flaccus 83.

      You're forgetting that the disciples were still there. That the Romans did occasionally grant the removal of bodies does nothing whatsoever to refute the extant accounts.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

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      • #33
        There are clear obvious details in the account in the gospels that can't be right. Zombies coming out of their graves (Matt 27:52). And the account is obviously patchwork: First Jesus is crucified (Matt 27:32-49), then he dies (27:50), then he's resurrected (27:52-53), then Jesus is buried (27:57-60), then the Romans put a guard on the tomb (27:62-66), then Jesus is resurrected again (28:1-10). I have had to listen to sermons by preachers make sense of that nonsense, where they claim by the way that Jesus was ascended at the exact moment of his death (the first resurrection), then he returned and walked around for 40 days and then got resurrected again!

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        • #34
          "They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people." Matt 27:53

          *emphasis mine

          AFTER - the mention occurs before the event, that's all. Jesus' resurrection does not occur pre-burial and there is only one resurrection.

          Grammar: it's not just for breakfast anymore...

          Oh, and since 'they' here are people who were resurrected, they are NOT zombies. Zombies are walking dead - these were very much alive.


          Last edited by Teallaura; 06-03-2017, 09:51 PM.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            You're forgetting that the disciples were still there. That the Romans did occasionally grant the removal of bodies does nothing whatsoever to refute the extant accounts.
            You are assuming that the disciples were still there. According to Mark, the earliest gospel, so likely to be the most accurate, Jesus actually prophisised that they would flee Jerusalem, and he would see them in Gallee (and that certainly seems the most likely scenario):

            Mark 14:27 And Jesus *said to them, “You will all [k]fall away, because it is written, ‘I will strike down the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.’ 28 But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee.”


            [bpx]Mark 16:6 And he *said to them, “Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him. 7 But go, tell His disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.’” 8 They went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had gripped them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.[/box]

            The rest of Mark was a later addition.
            My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              You're forgetting that the disciples were still there. That the Romans did occasionally grant the removal of bodies does nothing whatsoever to refute the extant accounts.
              Nope, they weren't.

              "Although the disciples, having completely disappeared, make no effort to afford Jesus proper burial (contrast John’s disciples in 6.22), the two Marys witness where the body was laid." New Oxford Annotated Bible 4th Ed commentary on Mark 15:47. It also makes the point that Joseph of Arithimea was not a disciple: "42–46: Joseph of Arimathea,a member of the council that had condemned Jesus (see 14.64), but like the scribe in 12.28–34, interested in the kingdom of God, asked for the body."

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              • #37
                Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                <snip>
                The rest of Mark was a later addition.
                In the fourth century there were cited that there many mss which omitted the longer ending. Today there are only 3 of the Greek mss which omit it. One of the mss which omit the reading its pages which omit it were a redaction to the ms itself. Better than 99.8% of all current ancient Greek mss of Mark have it. (John 8:47 note)
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  In the fourth century there were cited that there many mss which omitted the longer ending. Today there are only 3 of the Greek mss which omit it. One of the mss which omit the reading its pages which omit it were a redaction to the ms itself. Better than 99.8% of all current ancient Greek mss of Mark have it. (John 8:47 note)
                  That verses 16:9-20 are a later addition is so well established that even Bibles mention it.

                  See footnote c here:
                  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...6&version=NASB

                  And this makes it even clearer:
                  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=NIV
                  My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

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                  • #39
                    This was from an old post.

                    In addition to Acts 13:27-29 which Luke has Paul say it was "the Jews" plural, "those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers" who executed Jesus and then says "they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb", an early variant of John 19:38 also has "they" as in "the Jews" taking Jesus away for burial. This is also found in the Gospel of Peter 6:21 "then they (the Jews) drew the nails…and gave the body to Joseph” and in Justin Martyr: Dialogue 97.1 "towards evening they (the Jews) buried him". The Secret Book of James has Jesus refer to how he was "buried in the sand" meaning it was a shameful burial and mentions no tomb at all which shows that even into the 2nd century the author was unaware of an empty tomb tradition. All of these sources are attested early enough to reflect another burial tradition. https://books.google.com/books?id=DF...page&q&f=false

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                      This was from an old post.

                      In addition to Acts 13:27-29 which Luke has Paul say it was "the Jews" plural, "those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers" who executed Jesus and then says "they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb", an early variant of John 19:38 also has "they" as in "the Jews" taking Jesus away for burial. This is also found in the Gospel of Peter 6:21 "then they (the Jews) drew the nails…and gave the body to Joseph” and in Justin Martyr: Dialogue 97.1 "towards evening they (the Jews) buried him". The Secret Book of James has Jesus refer to how he was "buried in the sand" meaning it was a shameful burial and mentions no tomb at all which shows that even into the 2nd century the author was unaware of an empty tomb tradition. All of these sources are attested early enough to reflect another burial tradition. https://books.google.com/books?id=DF...page&q&f=false
                      You are reading into the text what the text does not say. The "they" in "they took [him] down" only can in the Greek refer to those who actually took him down. The Greek is the verb "took down" in the third person plural.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                        That verses 16:9-20 are a later addition is so well established that even Bibles mention it.

                        See footnote c here:
                        https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...6&version=NASB

                        And this makes it even clearer:
                        https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=NIV
                        The longer reading is older than the oldest Greek ms which omits it.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Aractus View Post
                          There are clear obvious details in the account in the gospels that can't be right. Zombies coming out of their graves (Matt 27:52). And the account is obviously patchwork: First Jesus is crucified (Matt 27:32-49), then he dies (27:50), then he's resurrected (27:52-53), then Jesus is buried (27:57-60), then the Romans put a guard on the tomb (27:62-66), then Jesus is resurrected again (28:1-10). I have had to listen to sermons by preachers make sense of that nonsense, where they claim by the way that Jesus was ascended at the exact moment of his death (the first resurrection), then he returned and walked around for 40 days and then got resurrected again!
                          Sure. But legendary accretions don't mean there's no history there. Otherwise we'd have to throw away most of ancient history. I'm sure Matthew didn't mean he was crucified twice.

                          Resurrected again after 40 days? That's, how to say it, non-standard. Sure you don't mean ascended again? Acts 1:6ff seems to be the big ascension, in that it's when he stopped appearing in bodily (or pseudo-bodily) form. But I doubt between his appearances to various people he was hanging around somewhere on earth. So I'd guess he stopped having a normal earthly life when he died. But anyone who claims to know in detail exactly what happened seems overly optimistic. It's not even clear how literally the author intended the account of the ascension in Acts. N T Wright has pointed out that appearances in the clouds are conventional language, which may not be meant literally.
                          Last edited by hedrick; 06-04-2017, 07:18 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            You are reading into the text what the text does not say. The "they" in "they took [him] down" only can in the Greek refer to those who actually took him down. The Greek is the verb "took down" in the third person plural.
                            What are you talking about? In Mark, Matthew, and Luke there is no "they." It's just Joseph of Arimathea. In Acts, it's Jesus' enemies which contradicts the Gospel depictions that it was the "disciple" Joseph.

                            In addition to the "they" in Acts, I gave four other data points which paint a different picture for the burial.
                            Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 06-04-2017, 07:36 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                              You are assuming that the disciples were still there. According to Mark, the earliest gospel, so likely to be the most accurate, Jesus actually prophisised that they would flee Jerusalem, and he would see them in Gallee (and that certainly seems the most likely scenario):

                              Mark 14:27 And Jesus *said to them, “You will all [k]fall away, because it is written, ‘I will strike down the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.’ 28 But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee.”


                              [bpx]Mark 16:6 And he *said to them, “Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him. 7 But go, tell His disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.’” 8 They went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had gripped them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.[/box]

                              The rest of Mark was a later addition.
                              Um, the next day, yeah. You do realize you supported, not refuted, the point, right?
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                                What are you talking about? In Mark, Matthew, and Luke there is no "they." It's just Joseph of Arimathea. In Acts, it's Jesus' enemies which contradicts the Gospel depictions that it was the "disciple" Joseph.

                                In addition to the "they" in Acts, I gave four other data points which paint a different picture for the burial.

                                Scripture doesn't say that - the body was given to Joseph of Arimathea. Matt 27: 57 - 58
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

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