Cool, thanks. I'll read it and report back. :)
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Who buried Jesus?
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Originally posted by Aractus View PostYou're forgetting though that James was a major apostle in the early Christian church, and a surviving family member of Jesus. Even if Peter and the other disciples didn't know where Jesus was buried, James would have known and could have told them.
This is what CitMW quotes:
"I have known cases when on the eve or a holiday of this kind, people who have been crucified have been taken down and their bodies delivered to their kinsfolk, because it was thought well to give them burial and allow them ordinary rites." Philo Flaccus 83.
You're forgetting that the disciples were still there. That the Romans did occasionally grant the removal of bodies does nothing whatsoever to refute the extant accounts."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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There are clear obvious details in the account in the gospels that can't be right. Zombies coming out of their graves (Matt 27:52). And the account is obviously patchwork: First Jesus is crucified (Matt 27:32-49), then he dies (27:50), then he's resurrected (27:52-53), then Jesus is buried (27:57-60), then the Romans put a guard on the tomb (27:62-66), then Jesus is resurrected again (28:1-10). I have had to listen to sermons by preachers make sense of that nonsense, where they claim by the way that Jesus was ascended at the exact moment of his death (the first resurrection), then he returned and walked around for 40 days and then got resurrected again!
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"They came out of the tombs afterwent into the holy city and appeared to many people." Matt 27:53
*emphasis mine
AFTER - the mention occurs before the event, that's all. Jesus' resurrection does not occur pre-burial and there is only one resurrection.
Grammar: it's not just for breakfast anymore...
Oh, and since 'they' here are people who were resurrected, they are NOT zombies. Zombies are walking dead - these were very much alive.
Last edited by Teallaura; 06-03-2017, 09:51 PM."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostYou're forgetting that the disciples were still there. That the Romans did occasionally grant the removal of bodies does nothing whatsoever to refute the extant accounts.
[/box]
The rest of Mark was a later addition.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostYou're forgetting that the disciples were still there. That the Romans did occasionally grant the removal of bodies does nothing whatsoever to refute the extant accounts.
New Oxford Annotated Bible 4th Ed commentary on Mark 15:47. It also makes the point that Joseph of Arithimea was not a disciple:
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Originally posted by The Pixie View Post<snip>
The rest of Mark was a later addition.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostIn the fourth century there were cited that there many mss which omitted the longer ending. Today there are only 3 of the Greek mss which omit it. One of the mss which omit the reading its pages which omit it were a redaction to the ms itself. Better than 99.8% of all current ancient Greek mss of Mark have it. (John 8:47 note)
See footnote c here:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...6&version=NASB
And this makes it even clearer:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=NIVMy Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by The Pixie View PostThat verses 16:9-20 are a later addition is so well established that even Bibles mention it.
See footnote c here:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...6&version=NASB
And this makes it even clearer:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=NIV. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Aractus View PostThere are clear obvious details in the account in the gospels that can't be right. Zombies coming out of their graves (Matt 27:52). And the account is obviously patchwork: First Jesus is crucified (Matt 27:32-49), then he dies (27:50), then he's resurrected (27:52-53), then Jesus is buried (27:57-60), then the Romans put a guard on the tomb (27:62-66), then Jesus is resurrected again (28:1-10). I have had to listen to sermons by preachers make sense of that nonsense, where they claim by the way that Jesus was ascended at the exact moment of his death (the first resurrection), then he returned and walked around for 40 days and then got resurrected again!
Resurrected again after 40 days? That's, how to say it, non-standard. Sure you don't mean ascended again? Acts 1:6ff seems to be the big ascension, in that it's when he stopped appearing in bodily (or pseudo-bodily) form. But I doubt between his appearances to various people he was hanging around somewhere on earth. So I'd guess he stopped having a normal earthly life when he died. But anyone who claims to know in detail exactly what happened seems overly optimistic. It's not even clear how literally the author intended the account of the ascension in Acts. N T Wright has pointed out that appearances in the clouds are conventional language, which may not be meant literally.Last edited by hedrick; 06-04-2017, 07:18 PM.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostYou are reading into the text what the text does not say. The "they" in "they took [him] down" only can in the Greek refer to those who actually took him down. The Greek is the verb "took down" in the third person plural.
In addition to the "they" in Acts, I gave four other data points which paint a different picture for the burial.Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 06-04-2017, 07:36 PM.
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Originally posted by The Pixie View PostYou are assuming that the disciples were still there. According to Mark, the earliest gospel, so likely to be the most accurate, Jesus actually prophisised that they would flee Jerusalem, and he would see them in Gallee (and that certainly seems the most likely scenario):
[/box]
The rest of Mark was a later addition."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View PostWhat are you talking about? In Mark, Matthew, and Luke there is no "they." It's just Joseph of Arimathea. In Acts, it's Jesus' enemies which contradicts the Gospel depictions that it was the "disciple" Joseph.
In addition to the "they" in Acts, I gave four other data points which paint a different picture for the burial.
Scripture doesn't say that - the body was given to Joseph of Arimathea. Matt 27: 57 - 58"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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