maybe morality is only partially objective

[seer]

Sort of like the conversion of Saul without the blindness and the voice of the invisible Jesus. But if nothing like that happened in your case, why would you convert. I understand that you say that you can offer no rational explanation, but you must have some kind of an explanation, as nobody comes to believe in a thing for no reason at all.

Jim, I can not offer you a classic cause and effect explination. Perhaps the Calvinists are correct - that God regenerated me and caused me to believe - I don't know for sure. Now I did have a couple of experiences right after my conversion that may be similar to Paul's but with no voices. I usually don't share these in public - it is enough to say that they were powerful encounters, so powerful I could hardly remain standing and I was sure that I was going to die. But these only confirmed my original conversion - they were not the cause of of it. This I do know, even after my conversion I still hated the idea of being a Christian (that has changed of course over the years).

[JimL]

Jim, I can not offer you a classic cause and effect explination. Perhaps the Calvinists are correct - that God regenerated me and caused me to believe - I don't know for sure. Now I did have a couple of experiences right after my conversion that may be similar to Paul's but with no voices. I usually don't share these in public - it is enough to say that they were powerful encounters, so powerful I could hardly remain standing and I was sure that I was going to die. But these only confirmed my original conversion - they were not the cause of of it. This I do know, even after my conversion I still hated the idea of being a Christian (that has changed of course over the years).

So you just started believing without possessing logical reason to do so, even though you hated the idea itself. Sounds very strange. Is that what you mean, that you had no choice but to believe even though you didn't know why you believed and indeed hated the idea?

[shunyadragon]

Jim, I can not offer you a classic cause and effect explination. Perhaps the Calvinists are correct - that God regenerated me and caused me to believe - I don't know for sure. Now I did have a couple of experiences right after my conversion that may be similar to Paul's but with no voices. I usually don't share these in public - it is enough to say that they were powerful encounters, so powerful I could hardly remain standing and I was sure that I was going to die. But these only confirmed my original conversion - they were not the cause of of it. This I do know, even after my conversion I still hated the idea of being a Christian (that has changed of course over the years).

This causes a lot of problems with the Catch-22 only those called or chosen, are the ones to believe, with apparently no choise with the rest of us shmucks clueless and not called. This has immense logical problems concerning the nature of God and the issue of salvation of the select few out of the Trillions and much more in tens of thousands of years of human history. It raises what i call the most important question . . .

Is salvation and revelation universal with humanity?

Apparently not in this view and most of the various different theologies of Christianity where God is selective, arbitrary, and a problem.

This also brings into serious question of the issue of Free Will.

[seer]

So you just started believing without possessing logical reason to do so, even though you hated the idea itself. Sounds very strange. Is that what you mean, that you had no choice but to believe even though you didn't know why you believed and indeed hated the idea?

Sort of, let me make this clear though - I believe the Christian religion is perfectly rational. As a matter of fact it is the ground or source for human rationality and a rational universe.

Now, CS Lewis said he was dragged into the Kingdom kicking and screaming. It was somewhat the same for me - meaning when I came to believe that Christ was the Son of God I could to shake that belief, I could no longer deny that fact.

[seer]

Is salvation and revelation universal with humanity?

Why would it have to be? Perhaps God only reveals Himself, in any meaningful way, to those He knows would respond.

[shunyadragon]

Why would it have to be?

True, but it definitely presents some logical problems, but than again it is more compatable with ancient world views that see the world that way.

Perhaps God only reveals Himself, in any meaningful way, to those He knows would respond.

If this is the case, Calvinism has the inside track, Free Will is problematic. The hole is getting deeper and the sides steeper.

[JimL]

Sort of, let me make this clear though - I believe the Christian religion is perfectly rational. As a matter of fact it is the ground or source for human rationality and a rational universe.

What do you mean by "sort of"? You must have either recieved some reason to believe in Jesus, or you just all of a sudden believed absent of reason. You seem to be implying the latter to be the case, but how is it possible to believe a thing if when you examine your mind you find no reason for that belief?

Now, CS Lewis said he was dragged into the Kingdom kicking and screaming. It was somewhat the same for me - meaning when I came to believe that Christ was the Son of God I could to shake that belief, I could no longer deny that fact.

Yes, but C.S. Lewis came to the conclusion through a logical process, he wasn't just all of a sudden struck with thoughtless belief. I'm trying to understand how that could be.

[seer]

If this is the case, Calvinism has the inside track, Free Will is problematic. The hole is getting deeper and the sides steeper.

Not at all Shuny, God could know who would freely accept him or freely reject Him. Then reveal Himself in a deeper way to those He knows would receive Him. Something along the line of the Molinism model.

[seer]

What do you mean by "sort of"? You must have either recieved some reason to believe in Jesus, or you just all of a sudden believed absent of reason. You seem to be implying the latter to be the case, but how is it possible to believe a thing if when you examine your mind you find no reason for that belief?

Some things are just self evident Jim. I don't make a logical argument to accept you as a person. Your person-hood is self evident. Now I could work backward and make a logical case for your existence but originally your person-hood was self-evident.

Yes, but C.S. Lewis came to the conclusion through a logical process, he wasn't just all of a sudden struck with thoughtless belief. I'm trying to understand how that could be.

Let me put it this way, in my life I had heard the standard apologetics for Christianity, they were fair but they never really compelled me - over that summer they did, but more than that I began to sense that I was dealing with a Real Person, a Living Being. This is the part I can't explain, this is the experience that is deeply personal.

[JimL]

Some things are just self evident Jim. I don't make a logical argument to accept you as a person. Your person-hood is self evident. Now I could work backward and make a logical case for your existence but originally your person-hood was self-evident.

But originally the existence of God, as you yourself have admitted was not self-evident to you, so if he went from non self-evident to self-evident then there had to have been a reason.

Let me put it this way, in my life I had heard the standard apologetics for Christianity, they were fair but they never really compelled me - over that summer they did, but more than that I began to sense that I was dealing with a Real Person, a Living Being. This is the part I can't explain, this is the experience that is deeply personal.

So, you were first convinced by the arguments, and only then did you sense Gods presence?

[seer]

But originally the existence of God, as you yourself have admitted was not self-evident to you, so if he went from non self-evident to self-evident then there had to have been a reason.

Sure, there is probably a reason - I just don't know it. All I can say is that it was like the blinders came off. What I found repulsive I now found completely glorious, and wonder filled. Jim, I can not tell you, really, why I fell in love with my wife (God rest her soul). I mean I could tell you she had certain qualities, and certain look, etc.. - but those qualities could probably be found in any number of women - that doesn't explain my falling for Sue. That is why this whole thing with God is difficult to explain - it is personal, you are dealing with a Person.

So, you were first convinced by the arguments, and only then did you sense Gods presence?

No, the encounters I spoke of came after my conversion but over that summer, before my conversion, there was a number of rapid "coincidences." I don't want to get into particulars here it is enough to say that I felt like I was being led, hemmed in - certain doors were closing and others opening, old opinions were dying new realization were forming. I can't give you an exact time line 21 years later - but that is the gist of it.

[JimL]

Sure, there is probably a reason - I just don't know it. All I can say is that it was like the blinders came off. What I found repulsive I now found completely glorious, and wonder filled. Jim, I can not tell you, really, why I fell in love with my wife (God rest her soul). I mean I could tell you she had certain qualities, and certain look, etc.. - but those qualities could probably be found in any number of women - that doesn't explain my falling for Sue. That is why this whole thing with God is difficult to explain - it is personal, you are dealing with a Person.

Okay, it seems that peoples personal experience of God is for some reason always difficult for them to explain. Why that should be so I don't understand, but such people I would assume must be, for some reason, special in the eyes of God don't you think? I mean like Saul and yourself who actually were disgusted with the idea of this God and yet he chose you to reveal himself to, or to regenerate your mind with knowledge of himself if you will. Do you have any idea as to why this would be so? I mean do you have any thoughts as to why you are special, or why it is that God doesn't reveal himself to everyone in this way?

No, the encounters I spoke of came after my conversion but over that summer, before my conversion, there was a number of rapid "coincidences." I don't want to get into particulars here it is enough to say that I felt like I was being led, hemmed in - certain doors were closing and others opening, old opinions were dying new realization were forming. I can't give you an exact time line 21 years later - but that is the gist of it.

But sometimes coincidences are just coincidences, like your story of that particular type of blanket you were searching for but couldn't find when all of a sudden a friend happened to have that very blanket which they gave or sold to you. You took that as an act of God, if I remember correctly, and so I have wonder if it is not your desire to believe that informs your experience?

[seer]

Okay, it seems that peoples personal experience of God is for some reason always difficult for them to explain. Why that should be so I don't understand, but such people I would assume must be, for some reason, special in the eyes of God don't you think? I mean like Saul and yourself who actually were disgusted with the idea of this God and yet he chose you to reveal himself to, or to regenerate your mind with knowledge of himself if you will. Do you have any idea as to why this would be so? I mean do you have any thoughts as to why you are special, or why it is that God doesn't reveal himself to everyone in this way?

I have no idea Jim, perhaps even though I was a God denier He knew me better than I knew myself - perhaps He knew I was good ground for His word, His efforts. Perhaps He knows when a man isn't good ground - and revealing Himself in this deeper way would cause greater condemnation for that man (to whom much is given much is required). But I'm not sure.

But sometimes coincidences are just coincidences, like your story of that particular type of blanket you were searching for but couldn't find when all of a sudden a friend happened to have that very blanket which they gave or sold to you. You took that as an act of God, if I remember correctly, and so I have wonder if it is not your desire to believe that informs your experience?

Well of course Jim, my belief informs how I see the world. I believe in a Sovereign Creator, Ruler (i.e. Hudson Bay Blanket incident). But over that summer there were just so many coincidences. Now I don't know what the correct number of such events in that time period would be considered normal (is there such a number?) - I do remember thinking that there was an intelligence behind it all. I knew from my past experience that genuine coincidence were few and far in between - in that summer they were way out of proportion to anything I had experienced in the past. And they were leading to one specific thing - or rather one specific Person.

[JimL]

I have no idea Jim, perhaps even though I was a God denier He knew me better than I knew myself - perhaps He knew I was good ground for His word, His efforts. Perhaps He knows when a man isn't good ground - and revealing Himself in this deeper way would cause greater condemnation for that man (to whom much is given much is required). But I'm not sure.

But if as you say, your conversion was that of a regeneration of, or a changing of your mind by God, then you were no better ground for His word, for Gods efforts, than any other man would be, since it is God and not yourself who is responsible for the change that took place in you. Like Saul/Paul, the persecuter of God, you denied Gods existence, yet, despite your disgust and disbelief in him, God changed your minds, remade you to believe, saved you against your own will, and yet sends to hell or annihilates those whose minds he doesn't change? Seems a rather self serving belief to me, not to mention a rather unjust God, No?

Well of course Jim, my belief informs how I see the world.

Exactly, your belief informs you that you amongst millions are special in the eyes of God and so you see coincidences, even rather meaningless ones, such as being directed to the very Hudson Bay blanket that you had been searching for, as an act of devine intervention. But why, why do you think that an devine intelligence would transform you, and guide you, and not do what is then only just by transforming the minds of all men? I can only surmise by this that you are mistaken, and that it was not devine intervention that changed your mind, unless your God is an unjust God and plays favorites, as is preached by Paul in Acts, but that you came to that belief all by yourself and then credited it to the intervention of the God of your new found belief.

[seer]

But if as you say, your conversion was that of a regeneration of, or a changing of your mind by God, then you were no better ground for His word, for Gods efforts, than any other man would be, since it is God and not yourself who is responsible for the change that took place in you. Like Saul/Paul, the persecuter of God, you denied Gods existence, yet, despite your disgust and disbelief in him, God changed your minds, remade you to believe, saved you against your own will, and yet sends to hell or annihilates those whose minds he doesn't change? Seems a rather self serving belief to me, not to mention a rather unjust God, No?

No Jim, that does not follow. First, I never felt that my will was violated. I believe I could walk away from Christ even now - though I can't imagine doing it. But that is the nature of love, I don't think that love can be genuine if it is forced. Second, even if this happened like the Calvinists suggest then who am I to complain? God knows what He is doing and has His reasons, even if I don't know them.

Exactly, your belief informs you that you amongst millions are special in the eyes of God and so you see coincidences, even rather meaningless ones, such as being directed to the very Hudson Bay blanket that you had been searching for, as an act of devine intervention. But why, why do you think that an devine intelligence would transform you, and guide you, and not do what is then only just by transforming the minds of all men? I can only surmise by this that you are mistaken, and that it was not devine intervention that changed your mind, unless your God is an unjust God and plays favorites, as is preached by Paul in Acts, but that you came to that belief all by yourself and then credited it to the intervention of the God of your new found belief.

Well Jim, that is your opinion. What can I say, you are an atheist and your atheism colors your worldview, just as my theism colors mine. And why would it be unjust for God to play favorites (if He in fact does)? Unjust according to whom? You?

Anyway that is not my position, I lean towards Molinism - that "God chooses who will be saved because He knows who would choose Him."

http://www.theopedia.com/Molinism