maybe morality is only partially objective

[shunyadragon]

salt of the earth is an offensive phrase to my religion

Its a good phrase in mine.

[shunyadragon]

No Jim, that does not follow. First, I never felt that my will was violated. I believe I could walk away from Christ even now - though I can't imagine doing it. But that is the nature of love, I don't think that love can be genuine if it is forced. Second, even if this happened like the Calvinists suggest then who am I to complain? God knows what He is doing and has His reasons, even if I don't know them.







Well Jim, that is your opinion. What can I say, you are an atheist and your atheism colors your worldview, just as my theism colors mine. And why would it be unjust for God to play favorites (if He in fact does)? Unjust according to whom? You?

Anyway that is not my position, I lean towards Molinism - that "God chooses who will be saved because He knows who would choose Him."

http://www.theopedia.com/Molinism

Molinism and Calvinism are problematic views and present logical contradictions, particularly concerning free will and the concept of evil. Molinism is weak attempt to 'fix' Calvinism. In both God knows absolutely what and who will do what in the future, and makes any concept of free will a shame. God essentially knows and creates the circumstances of ALL evil and the rejection and acceptance of good, based on both views.

One significant contradiction is the story of Adam and Eve and the 'Fall' in Genesis. In the view of both Calvinism and Molinism God 'knows' the outcome. In Genesis that is not how it is described. God is angry, and surprised at the decision of Adam and Eve, and exacts vindictive and extreme punishment on Adam and Eve, and ALL future generations until some redemptive future event that most Christians claim was the coming of Christ, which remains problematic, because pretty much all the punishment exacted by God on the descendants of Adam and Eve remain in effect.

[seer]

Molinism and Calvinism are problematic views and present logical contradictions, particularly concerning free will and the concept of evil. Molinism is weak attempt to 'fix' Calvinism. In both God knows absolutely what and who will do what in the future, and makes any concept of free will a shame. God essentially knows and creates the circumstances of ALL evil and the rejection and acceptance of good, based on both views.

Well that is just silly Shuny, knowledge does not equal causation. There is no contradiction and free will is still viable.

[shunyadragon]

Well that is just silly Shuny, knowledge does not equal causation.

It does if God knows and causes of everything!!!!

There is no contradiction and free will is still viable.

If either is true, than free will is either meaningless or non-existent

[seer]

It does if God knows and causes of everything!!!!


If either is true, than free will is either meaningless or non-existent

Sorry Shuny, God could have created beings with real moral freedom, while at the same time knowing how they would misuse said freedom (down to the detail). There is simply no logical contradiction here.

[shunyadragon]

Sorry Shuny, God could have created beings with real moral freedom, while at the same time knowing how they would misuse said freedom (down to the detail). There is simply no logical contradiction here.

I guess this possible, but free will remains of no more value here than in Calvinism in this rather obtuse argument to patch Calvinism.

[seer]

I guess this possible, but free will remains of no more value here than in Calvinism in this rather obtuse argument to patch Calvinism.

Hardly, but you have shown yourself to be rather bias on these issues...

[shunyadragon]

Hardly, but you have shown yourself to be rather bias on these issues...

No, the problem of moral culpability remains unresolved in both Calvinism and Molinism. and the problem and contradiction not responded to concerning the account of Adam and Eve is unresolved.

[JimL]

Sorry Shuny, God could have created beings with real moral freedom, while at the same time knowing how they would misuse said freedom (down to the detail). There is simply no logical contradiction here.

How so seer? If Gods knowledge is eternal then he would therefore know your future even before he created you, if before you even exist the knowledge of your entire future exists in the mind of the one who made you, then only the one who made you could be responsible for that future? I've had this argument before and see no way around the fact that free will is impossible if you are created by a God with eternal knowledge.

[seer]

No, the problem of moral culpability remains unresolved in both Calvinism and Molinism. and the problem and contradiction not responded to concerning the account of Adam and Eve is unresolved.

There is no contradiction in the A&E story. If you think there is please lay out a logical syllogism showing how.

[seer]

How so seer? If Gods knowledge is eternal then he would therefore know your future even before he created you, if before you even exist the knowledge of your entire future exists in the mind of the one who made you, then only the one who made you could be responsible for that future? I've had this argument before and see no way around the fact that free will is impossible if you are created by a God with eternal knowledge.

Yes Jim and you never made the connection - how does mere knowledge equal causation? I have certain knowledge that Hitler invaded Poland n the spring of 1939 - does that certain knowledge equal causation? Of course not. God always knew that we would make bad choices, that does not mean that He caused them or generally even wanted them.

[shunyadragon]

There is no contradiction in the A&E story. If you think there is please lay out a logical syllogism showing how.

God indicated literally that he had no foreknowledge of the disobedience of Adam and Eve. He responded angrilly and his punishment was severe. This complete foreknowledge claimed by Molinism does not deal with moral culpability of supposed free will..

[JimL]

Yes Jim and you never made the connection - how does mere knowledge equal causation? I have certain knowledge that Hitler invaded Poland n the spring of 1939 - does that certain knowledge equal causation? Of course not. God always knew that we would make bad choices, that does not mean that He caused them or generally even wanted them.

If his knowledge is eternal knowledge and he also created us it does. Think about it?

[shunyadragon]

Yes Jim and you never made the connection - how does mere knowledge equal causation? I have certain knowledge that Hitler invaded Poland n the spring of 1939 - does that certain knowledge equal causation? Of course not. God always knew that we would make bad choices, that does not mean that He caused them or generally even wanted them.

Your knowledge as a mere fallible human does not of course equal causation, and your not God, bad analogy. God has total foreknowledge concerning everything by the Molinist. God is the Creator and cause of everything.

Are you in some way equating your knowledge to God's?

[seer]

Your knowledge as a mere fallible human does not of course equal causation, and your not God, bad analogy. God has total foreknowledge concerning everything by the Molinist. God is the Creator and cause of everything.

Are you in some way equating your knowledge to God's?

Actually yes, when it comes to particular past events. I have certain knowledge that Hitler invaded Poland in the spring of 1939 - does that certain knowledge equal causation? Of course not - there is no necessary connection between knowledge and causation. Not even with God's. And yes, God created everything - including morally free creatures.