Abortion and Vaccination

[RBerman]

What do you think about the idea of vaccines being made with the tissue of an aborted fetus?

That's what I addressed in the first post I made in this thread. Christianity is religion based in part on the conviction that God can do wonderful things with terrible things like murder. Abortion is a kind of murder. Christians should oppose abortion but also should not have moral qualms with something good that can come out of some particular abortion in the long run.

Here is a link to the PDF of the article theorizing the connection between autism and poor vaccine manufacturing methods by former drug company scientist Helen Ratajczak.

The article does a good job at summarizing a dozen or so theories about possible causes of autism, including poisoning, genetic causes, and others. In order to test the theory that a particular vaccine causes autism, you would study two groups which were as similar as possible, except one group did receive that particular vaccine, and one group did not. That study has been done for numerous vaccines, and so far the groups have had the same rates of autism. This will remain a hot topic for years to come, so I'm sure we'll see more studies evaluating various vaccines for increased rates of autism or other diseases above the background rates. Science's conclusions are always tentative and subject to correct. We'll also continue to see studies about children who got sick and died due to vaccine-preventable illnesses, because at the moment the vaccine brouhaha has distracted too many people from the bigger threat of epidemic illness.

[disciple100]

That's what I addressed in the first post I made in this thread. Christianity is religion based in part on the conviction that God can do wonderful things with terrible things like murder. Abortion is a kind of murder. Christians should oppose abortion but also should not have moral qualms with something good that can come out of some particular abortion in the long run.

Though, something to think about is that if vaccines, food, cosmetics, etc are being constantly manufactured with fetal tissue, does it not indirectly endorse abortion? I understand that Molech is not going to be leaving us any time soon, and that God can turn good things out of bad like the sacrifice of children to Molech, but should we not draw a line? Human fetal tissue just so happens to be an abundant resource for the moment, but the fact that we are able to use it as a resource might impede the elimination of abortion.

The article does a good job at summarizing a dozen or so theories about possible causes of autism, including poisoning, genetic causes, and others. In order to test the theory that a particular vaccine causes autism, you would study two groups which were as similar as possible, except one group did receive that particular vaccine, and one group did not. That study has been done for numerous vaccines, and so far the groups have had the same rates of autism. This will remain a hot topic for years to come, so I'm sure we'll see more studies evaluating various vaccines for increased rates of autism or other diseases above the background rates. Science's conclusions are always tentative and subject to correct. We'll also continue to see studies about children who got sick and died due to vaccine-preventable illnesses, because at the moment the vaccine brouhaha has distracted too many people from the bigger threat of epidemic illness.

Yes, hopefully I do not sound like a broken record when it comes to the whole autism-vaccination thing, I understand that there are other variables at work. Though, while I agree that genetics can definitely be a cause (beyond our control), I think that it is a minor one when one considers the vast majority of the factors well within our control, in fact how one treats his or her own body (and DNA) has a direct impact on the genetics of the next generation. Since most people treat their bodies like garbage, it is actually not too surprising that there are so many sick children. Yet despite all of these impediments, we are still thriving. Even when the body is given minimal nutrition it can still do marvelous things; it is able to make due with the limited resources it has. God truly is amazing, our bodies are a reflection of that.

[RBerman]

Though, something to think about is that if vaccines, food, cosmetics, etc are being constantly manufactured with fetal tissue, does it not indirectly endorse abortion? I understand that Molech is not going to be leaving us any time soon, and that God can turn good things out of bad like the sacrifice of children to Molech, but should we not draw a line? Human fetal tissue just so happens to be an abundant resource for the moment, but the fact that we are able to use it as a resource might impede the elimination of abortion.

Given that we don't draw the line at the murder of God himself, I don't think any Christian should consider the murder of babies a lesser crime or sin. I can't think of how it impedes the elimination of abortion now to keep using tissue that came from abortions decades ago. Refer to back to my earlier comment about the original owners of the land your house is on.

Yes, hopefully I do not sound like a broken record when it comes to the whole autism-vaccination thing, I understand that there are other variables at work.

Well, you do seem to be spending your time researching and thinking about reasons not to give vaccines, rather than reasons to give them. Judging by your posts, anyway.

[disciple100]

Well, you do seem to be spending your time researching and thinking about reasons not to give vaccines, rather than reasons to give them. Judging by your posts, anyway.

Vaccines seem to have plenty of advocates already. It is good to have an idea of what not to put into your body as well as what to put in. What good is 'an apple a day' if the rest of the time you are smoking, drinking, and gorging on garbage? If the antidote is worse than the poison, why use it?

[RBerman]

Vaccines seem to have plenty of advocates already.

That sounds more like a post hoc rationalization than a real reason. People don't usually advocate for one side simply because it's less represented. They advocate for the side which they believe has the stronger case.

[disciple100]

That sounds more like a post hoc rationalization than a real reason. People don't usually advocate for one side simply because it's less represented. They advocate for the side which they believe has the stronger case.

Yes it does. I apologize for not being clearer. You said, judging by my posts, I seem to be spending more time looking for reasons not to receive vaccinations. It is true that I have indeed spent more time doing that; I think that there is significant cause to withhold (certain) vaccinations. My reasons for posting a conflicting view reflect that, however, I do believe the other side is not represented enough. Vaccines are accepted, for the most part, unquestioningly. I said they seem to have plenty of advocates, and they do, so there is a wealth of information that is pro vaccine. There are many people who are blindly for and against vaccines; I was blindly against. I am still hesitant regarding vaccines, but I know that not all of them are neccessarily evil now. There are agendas on both sides, so at the moment I am wading through the information that I am more accustomed to, but I do intend to progress towards information that I am less familar with.

[RBerman]

Yes it does. I apologize for not being clearer. You said, judging by my posts, I seem to be spending more time looking for reasons not to receive vaccinations. It is true that I have indeed spent more time doing that; I think that there is significant cause to withhold (certain) vaccinations. My reasons for posting a conflicting view reflect that, however, I do believe the other side is not represented enough. Vaccines are accepted, for the most part, unquestioningly. I said they seem to have plenty of advocates, and they do, so there is a wealth of information that is pro vaccine. There are many people who are blindly for and against vaccines; I was blindly against. I am still hesitant regarding vaccines, but I know that not all of them are neccessarily evil now. There are agendas on both sides, so at the moment I am wading through the information that I am more accustomed to, but I do intend to progress towards information that I am less familar with.

If you think that vaccines are accepted unquestioningly, then you walk in different circles than I do. As Dr. Mercola noted, anti-vaccine propoganda is on the substantial rise. Vaccination rates are falling. Vaccine-preventable illness is on the rise.

I submit that the reason you think the anti-vaccine side is stronger is precisely because you spend more time reading their literature. If you read Dr. Offit's book you might get a more balanced understanding. You might see that these issues are very complex for the professional, and moreso for the layperson. The more I learn about the world, the more I realize about the importance of specialization. I cannot be an expert at everything. If I'm lucky, I can become an expert at a few things. In other things, I have to choose an expert that I trust, for whatever reasons I deem sufficient. You need a vaccine expert that you know personally. You need a pediatrician that you trust and can discuss your concerns with. You need for your expert not to be Dr. Mercola, who has his fingers in many different pies and, as I hope I have showed you, does not understand (or perhaps does not explain) the issue of vaccines with the expertise you need your chosen expert to have.