Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Isaiah 42

  1. #1
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    251
    Amen (Given)
    18
    Amen (Received)
    56

    Isaiah 42

    Could a Jew tell us what Judaism teaches about Isaiah 42?

    Muslims say it is about Muhammad because Isaiah 42 says:

    Let the desert and its cities shout,
    the settlements where Kedar dwells cry aloud.

    Muslims say since Kedar, who was one of Ishmael's sons, is mentioned, it refers to Muhammad.

    What do Jews teach?

    Thank you.

  2. #2
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Midwest
    Faith
    Unorthodox
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    289
    Amen (Given)
    7
    Amen (Received)
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Could a Jew tell us what Judaism teaches about Isaiah 42?

    Muslims say it is about Muhammad because Isaiah 42 says:

    Let the desert and its cities shout,
    the settlements where Kedar dwells cry aloud.

    Muslims say since Kedar, who was one of Ishmael's sons, is mentioned, it refers to Muhammad.

    What do Jews teach?

    Thank you.
    Christian 3 - I found out some information for you about Kedar. Hopefully, this will help you understand that part of Isaiah 42 because that verse opened my eyes.

    Qedarites The Qedarites (also Kedarites/Cedarenes, Cedar/Kedar/Qedar, and Kingdom of Qedar) were a largely nomadic, ancient Arab and Semitic tribal confederation. Described as "the most organized of the Northern Arabian tribes", at the peak of its power in the 6th century BC it controlled a large region between the Mesopotamia and Hejaz. Biblical tradition holds that the Qedarites are named for Qedar, the second son of Ishmael, mentioned in the Bible's books of Genesis (25:13) and 1 Chronicles (1:29) where there are also frequent references to Qedar as a tribe.

    The Arabic triliteral root q-d-r means "to measure, compute, estimate", "to decree, appoint, ordain", and "to have power, or ability." Qidr, a noun derived from the same root, means "cauldron, kettle", and also gives the verbal derivation, "to cook" Ernst Axel Knauf, a biblical scholar who undertook a historical study of the Ishmaelites and determined that they were known in Assyrian inscriptions as the Sumu'il, surmises that the name of the Qedarites was derived from the verb qadara, with its meaning of "to ordain, to have power". As this etymology is a deduction based solely on the prominence of the Qedar among the Sumu'il tribes, it is viewed as inconclusive by other scholars.

    NOTING: Qedar is used to refer to the actual son of Ishmael, as in the books of Genesis and Chronicles. There are brief references to the Qedar in the writings of Western travelers to the Levant in the 19th century. Drawing on biblical motifs, comparisons are made between the Bedouins and the Qedar. Fro example, Albert Augustus Isaacs describes the imposing spectacle of a Bedouin encampment on a plain upon which, "the black tents of kedar were spread far and wide" An earlier account by Charles Boileau Elliot describes the Arabs as falling into two main groups, Fellahs and Bedouins, and identifies the latter with Ishmael and the Qedar as follows.

    "The Bedouins still retain the wandering habits of their father Ishmael; their "hand is against every man, and every man's hand is against' them; the wild desert is their home; the ground their pallet and their canopy the sky; or, if luxurious their choicest place of sojourn is a little ten 'black as the tents of Kedar' their progenitor..."

    *****

    This being said, references tell that Kedar is in the Song of Songs:

    Question: "What does it mean that the Shulammite had dark skin (Song of Solomon 1:6)?"

    Answer: The Shulammite, the woman Solomon loves, refers to herself as having dark skin: “Do not gaze at me because I am dark” (Song of Solomon 1:6, ESV). In the NASB, she is “swarthy”; in the KJV, she is “black.”

    Some have suggested that the Shulammite woman was a dark-skinned woman, perhaps of African descent. However, a more likely answer is found in the very same verse. Immediately following the mention of the woman as “dark,” we read, “Because the sun has looked upon me” (ESV). In the NIV, it’s clearer what she means: “Because I am darkened by the sun.” And the rest of the verse explains why the Shulammite was in the sun: “My mother’s sons were angry with me / and made me take care of the vineyards; / my own vineyard I had to neglect” In other words, she was forced to work outside in the sun and had not taken care of her skin as she preferred.

    *****

    and last information:

    Kedar (Qedar) comes from a Hebrew word that means “swarthy”. While many people claim that the Bible makes no reference to race, this is one of the few instances that proves them wrong.

    ◾Swarthy: dark skinned
    Last edited by Marta; 06-01-2017 at 10:08 AM.

  3. #3
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Midwest
    Faith
    Unorthodox
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    289
    Amen (Given)
    7
    Amen (Received)
    19
    Isaiah 42: 11, "Let the wilderness and its towns raise their voices; let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice."

    "Let the Settlements where Kedar "lives" rejoice" - where were the settlements in Kedar located?


    "The Qedarites were an "Arab tribal confederation, "or "alliance of nomadic Arab tribes". According to Philip J. King, theologian and historian, they lived in the north west Arabian desert and were "influential force from the 8th to 4th centuries BC". Geoffrey Bromiley, historical theologist and translator, transcribes their name as Kedar and states they lived in an area southeast of Damascus and east of the Transjordan. Qedarite domination of northwest Arabia involved alliances between the kings of Qedar and the kings of Dedan (Al-Ula). Historian Israel Eh'al writes that the "breadth of Qedarite distribution suggests a federation of tribes with various sub-divisions.

    There is more Information: World War I, The Sykes-Picot carve-up led to a century of turbulence
    under: Mesopotamia and Hejaz, at one time was controlled by Qedarites. Hejaz, is regarded as the most important principality in Arabia in view of the fact that it possesses the cities of Mecca and Medina.

    **The majority of Sayyid, most whom are Shia Muslims, believe that they are one of the modern day descendants of Muhammad, and that they are therefore the descendants of Ishmael and his second son Qedar ** same reference: under Qedarite

  4. #4
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    251
    Amen (Given)
    18
    Amen (Received)
    56
    Thank you for your reply, Marta.

    I see from some of your posts that you are a Christian.

    It doesn't appear that there are any Jews on this forum at the present time.

    Judaism 101 says that Isaiah 42 is messianic, so should be about the Messiah.

    Since it is about the Messiah, it is not about Muhammad.

    I think it is very clear from the context that Isaiah was calling all people to praise God for what God has done and will do. Kedar is mentioned as one example among others.

  5. #5
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Midwest
    Faith
    Unorthodox
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    289
    Amen (Given)
    7
    Amen (Received)
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Thank you for your reply, Marta.

    I see from some of your posts that you are a Christian.

    It doesn't appear that there are any Jews on this forum at the present time.

    Judaism 101 says that Isaiah 42 is messianic, so should be about the Messiah.

    Since it is about the Messiah, it is not about Muhammad.

    I think it is very clear from the context that Isaiah was calling all people to praise God for what God has done and will do. Kedar is mentioned as one example among others.
    Interesting though on how they had derived at the fact that this would point toward Muhammad, (Mohammad (primarily in Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan), Muhammad (in India and Bangladesh). Also, using the Kingdom of Kedar (Qedar) in the passage and also, using Kedar in the Song of Songs, not to mention in Genesis and Chronicles.

    Out of curiosity, I wanted to know more. Of the Ishmaelite tribes, Kedar must have been one of the most important. However, Kedar is where Muslims trace the descent of Mohammed from Ishmael. When I read through some of the material, right away I thought of the song of songs and remembered Rabbi Shefa Gold's commentary - it is very beautifully written, “I was asleep but my heart was awake. Listen! My lover is knocking.” or even the verse 1:5 we read, “Dark am I, yet lovely, / daughters of Jerusalem, / dark like the tents of Kedar, / like the tent curtains of Solomon.” The tents of Kedar were made from the wool of black goats. The curtains of Solomon is a difficult phrase to render from the Hebrew text. Many believe the correct understanding is instead “the tents of Salma.” If so, the word picture is fitting. The Salma people lived in the same general region as Kedar and likely also constructed their tents with black wool."

  6. #6
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Midwest
    Faith
    Unorthodox
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    289
    Amen (Given)
    7
    Amen (Received)
    19
    Interesting isn't it? You can really sink your teeth into it, right? Curious though - why did you need a Jewish understanding of the verse? Considering that the verse (and being Messianic) is so controversial to all three religions. Agreed, that this is a Messianic interpretation and is a priori (from earlier sources which takes precedent that was set by the New Testament writers).

  7. #7
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    251
    Amen (Given)
    18
    Amen (Received)
    56
    Quote Originally Posted by Marta View Post
    Interesting isn't it? You can really sink your teeth into it, right? Curious though - why did you need a Jewish understanding of the verse? Considering that the verse (and being Messianic) is so controversial to all three religions. Agreed, that this is a Messianic interpretation and is a priori (from earlier sources which takes precedent that was set by the New Testament writers).
    I discuss these matters with Muslims and I wanted to hear what Jews would say about the interpretation of Isaiah 42.

  8. #8
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Midwest
    Faith
    Unorthodox
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    289
    Amen (Given)
    7
    Amen (Received)
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    I discuss these matters with Muslims and I wanted to hear what Jews would say about the interpretation of Isaiah 42.
    The topic of the kingdom of Kedar (Qedar) being mentioned in Isaiah would seem as a nation being called out, "let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice." The first part of Isaiah 42 notes a 'servant' who will bring justice to the nations (deliverance), and the 2nd part calls out to the people -to rejoice so would this be a prophecy in a general way? Is that how you see it? Kedar (Qedar) a kingdom that was meant in a generalization way. I thought that the people who were in the vicinity that surrounded Israel, on hearing this prophecy of God's servant, would rejoice - Jordan/Syria? Does it tell of the location of the servant? or where he was from?

    Yes, it would be nice to hear from someone Jewish.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •