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Can You Prove A Negative?

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  • Can You Prove A Negative?

    Is it possible?

    The link can be found here.

    -----

    Is it possible to prove a negative? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    I've found myself in a few discussions lately where the idea of the inability to prove a negative has come up. It's always an intriguing claim when it's made and usually it's a way of trying to give the other person the burden of proof. An atheist will claim that he "lacks God belief", which is a whole separate post, and then says that he doesn't have to prove God doesn't exist because it's the responsibility of the Christian or any other theist to prove that He does exist.

    Of course, this is fallacious right from the start. Let's suppose said theist cannot demonstrate his claim. That doesn't do anything for atheism really. It could be that God still does exist and that the theist just has really poor reasons for thinking that he does. That still doesn't answer the claim about proving the negative.

    For one thing, is this an absolute idea that you can't prove a negative? If so, then has this been proven? If it has been proven, then a negative has been proven, and that is that a negative cannot be proven. If it has not been proven, then there is no reason to take it as an automatic truth.

    Second, if the God of Christianity exists, it would be impossible to disprove His existence since, well, He exist. Yet hypothetically, one could disprove His existence. What would need to be shown is that there is a necessary contradiction in the essential nature of God. If someone can do this, then since contradictions can't be true, God does not exist.

    We can think of many statements like this. There are no triangles with four sides. There are no circles with six corners. There are no bachelors that are married. These kinds of ideas we know by the very nature of the object involved.

    Are there any other disproofs that can be given? Certainly. There is no Jupiter-sized planet between Earth and Mars. I am writing this in my apartment office right now. There are no elephants in my office. I just took a look around. Nope. Still aren't any.

    Of course, there are some matters that are much harder to disprove. To say there are no elephants in my office is an easy one. To say there are no fleas in my office would take a whole lot more. There could be some technological way to demonstrate this right now that I don't know about, but as it stands, I know of none so I would have no way of demonstrating the claim that there are no fleas in my office.

    So when we come to these arguments, who has the burden of proof? I'm just going to make a bizarre suggestion, but maybe in a debate, if someone makes a claim, they have the burden of proving that claim. If someone claims to be an atheist, they need to give reasons for their claim. If someone claims to be a theist and/or a Christian, they also need to give reasons.

    Might sound odd I admit. Having someone demonstrate their own claim? Yet maybe that is exactly what would work.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    But there ARE elephants in MY office! they are just really small ones. invisible ones. and they are laughing at me.

    STOP IT!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      But there ARE elephants in MY office! they are just really small ones. invisible ones. and they are laughing at me.

      STOP IT!!!
      Sounds like this



      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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      • #4
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Sounds like this


        Ha. Sagan isn't laughing now is he? He was eaten by the garage dragon.

        Comment


        • #5
          Sagan when he was near death was part of an online community of astrophysicists. Many of them were Christians. One of them actually sent out a message to the group to Sagan that said "Carl. I hear you have a big test coming up. I hope you pass."

          A few days later a response came from Sagan.

          "I hope I pass too.

          Please pray for me."

          I would like to hope that maybe before he died....

          Comment


          • #6
            And what about the “law of parsimony”? The God hypothesis is pointless unless it explains something that cannot otherwise be explained. This has never been demonstrated.

            We conclude then that God is a human possession. Some people have one in the same way that a person keeps a pet dog, and others do not.
            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
            “not all there” - you know who you are

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            • #7
              You can't "prove a negative," but what you can do is try to show that the existence of God entails some type of logical impossibility.

              Comment


              • #8
                I think the best general argument for atheism is an evidenced-based one that I lay out here. From the amens it seems most of the skeptics in this forum largely agree.

                Of course specific arguments can be made against specific teachings of particular religions.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  I think the best general argument for atheism is an evidenced-based one that I lay out here. From the amens it seems most of the skeptics in this forum largely agree.

                  Of course specific arguments can be made against specific teachings of particular religions.
                  Except for (e) your arguments are all based upon the assumption that you know exactly what God is doing, and are smarter than He is.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    And what about the “law of parsimony”? The God hypothesis is pointless unless it explains something that cannot otherwise be explained. This has never been demonstrated.

                    We conclude then that God is a human possession. Some people have one in the same way that a person keeps a pet dog, and others do not.
                    kinda like why we keep you around?

                    Sit. that's a good boy.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What needs to be proven to exist is not God.


                      Proving a negative entails proving there is something else that exists which would exclude the other.
                      Last edited by 37818; 06-01-2017, 02:06 PM.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        What needs to be proven to exist is not God.

                        Proving a negative entails proving there is something else that exists which would exclude the other.
                        I exist.
                        I am not God.
                        Therefore God doesn't exist?
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          I exist.
                          I am not God.
                          Therefore God doesn't exist?
                          No. Your logic does make sense. Star where is your light?
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            I exist.
                            I am not God.
                            Therefore God doesn't exist?
                            But firstfloor says that we are all God.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It's an overblown statement that we accept to readily - when it suits us. In fact, negatives are easily proven all the time. My shirt is not black. <looks down at blue shirt> Observation proves this statement to be true.

                              Some negative statements are exceedingly difficult or impossible to prove - but that doesn't mean all are. And as AN pointed out, if the statement is correct then it is also false because it is itself a negative.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

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