Fast and Furious; Obama's Watergate?

[Ansgar Seraph]

But they didn't. Once those guns went across the border, there was no tracing of them until they showed up at a crime scene (either on our side, or the Mexico side). It wasn't just a botched operation, it was fundamentally flawed. Criminally flawed even... remember, people have actually died because of these guns.

They actually did try to use GPS at least at some point; problem is that there are no batteries in existence that are the appropriate size that could keep the units charged anything like long enough to make it to the guns' intended targets. So still not much forethought going into that plan.

-Sam

[Sheepdog]

They actually did try to use GPS at least at some point; problem is that there are no batteries in existence that are the appropriate size that could keep the units charged anything like long enough to make it to the guns' intended targets. So still not much forethought going into that plan.

-Sam

Ok, so let's suppose that the GPS chips lasted indefinitely. The ATF does not have jurisdiction once the guns walk across the border. Neither the ATF nor the DoJ notified the Mexican law enforcement. Finally, one of these smugglers could literally walk out the store and go rob a bank. In a proper gun sting, law enforcement would immediately descend on the perp at the sale or shortly after. Otherwise you just armed a known criminal, who could immediately use the gun in a crime.

This operation was maliciously botched. What is an open question, was it maliciously so?

[rogue06]

This operation was maliciously botched. What is an open question, was it maliciously so?

Let me see if I can guess what you think

[Ansgar Seraph]

Ok, so let's suppose that the GPS chips lasted indefinitely. The ATF does not have jurisdiction once the guns walk across the border. Neither the ATF nor the DoJ notified the Mexican law enforcement. Finally, one of these smugglers could literally walk out the store and go rob a bank. In a proper gun sting, law enforcement would immediately descend on the perp at the sale or shortly after. Otherwise you just armed a known criminal, who could immediately use the gun in a crime.

This operation was maliciously botched. What is an open question, was it maliciously so?

Not exactly arguing here, since I agree that this was a horribly botched job in both execution and concept but you mixed a hypothetical (imagine GPS lasted indefinitely) and an actuality (law enforcement did not contact Mexican officials). If the GPS chips had lasted long enough, we can be reasonably sure that law enforcement would have acted on the information. How worthwhile that information would end up being is certainly an excellent question but there is nothing unusual in law enforcement, in general, allowing some criminals to engage in crimes so that officers can catch the "bigger fish."

Of course, the magnitude and severity of this operation should have been stopped at the concept stage. However far up this reasonably goes, there should be justice brought to bear.

--Sam

[Sheepdog]

Not exactly arguing here, since I agree that this was a horribly botched job in both execution and concept but you mixed a hypothetical (imagine GPS lasted indefinitely) and an actuality (law enforcement did not contact Mexican officials). If the GPS chips had lasted long enough, we can be reasonably sure that law enforcement would have acted on the information. How worthwhile that information would end up being is certainly an excellent question but there is nothing unusual in law enforcement, in general, allowing some criminals to engage in crimes so that officers can catch the "bigger fish."

We cannot be reasonably sure that the ATF would have notified the Mexican law enforcement. They didn't even inform ATF/other US agents working in Mexico. Although the GPS chips were a joke (how many were used?), they knew which cartels were buying the guns, so they had a good idea where in Mexico they were going. But they did not inform Mexican law enforcement.

[Challenger Grim]

We cannot be reasonably sure that the ATF would have notified the Mexican law enforcement. They didn't even inform ATF/other US agents working in Mexico. Although the GPS chips were a joke (how many were used?), they knew which cartels were buying the guns, so they had a good idea where in Mexico they were going. But they did not inform Mexican law enforcement.

Part of me is trying to figure out why - if they're doing this - they even gave working guns to the cartels. Seriously, none of them thought about "hey, what if it goes wrong..."

[Sheepdog]

Part of me is trying to figure out why - if they're doing this - they even gave working guns to the cartels. Seriously, none of them thought about "hey, what if it goes wrong..."

The individual agents knew it was horribly evil. There were cases where they wanted to intervene, and were ordered not to by the higher-ups.

[Conductor42]

They actually did try to use GPS at least at some point; problem is that there are no batteries in existence that are the appropriate size that could keep the units charged anything like long enough to make it to the guns' intended targets. So still not much forethought going into that plan.

-Sam

That's because they didn't consult the mighty....

[Sheepdog]

This is getting ugly. Agent Brian Terry's family was denied "victim status" by the US Attorney’s office in Arizona. This is the same office that was involved in Gunwalker.

If they received victim status, it would be easier for them to file wrongful death charges, and the US Attorney's office would be subject to discovery. Can you imagine all the new facts that would come out? What are they hiding, do you suppose?

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=45456

[rogue06]

Curiouser and curiouser

ATF promotes supervisors in controversial gun operation

The ATF has promoted three key supervisors of a controversial sting operation that allowed firearms to be illegally trafficked across the U.S. border into Mexico.

All three have been heavily criticized for pushing the program forward even as it became apparent that it was out of control. At least 2,000 guns were lost and many turned up at crime scenes in Mexico and two at the killing of a U.S. Border Patrol agent in Arizona.

The three supervisors have been given new management positions at the agency's headquarters in Washington. They are William G. McMahon, who was the ATF's deputy director of operations in the West, where the illegal trafficking program was focused, and William D. Newell and David Voth, both field supervisors who oversaw the program out of the agency's Phoenix office.

McMahon and Newell have acknowledged making serious mistakes in the program, which was dubbed Operation Fast and Furious.


Source

© source where applicable

Are they being rewarded for their own admitted bungling or for keeping their mouths shut?

[seanD]

Curiouser and curiouser

ATF promotes supervisors in controversial gun operation

The ATF has promoted three key supervisors of a controversial sting operation that allowed firearms to be illegally trafficked across the U.S. border into Mexico.

All three have been heavily criticized for pushing the program forward even as it became apparent that it was out of control. At least 2,000 guns were lost and many turned up at crime scenes in Mexico and two at the killing of a U.S. Border Patrol agent in Arizona.

The three supervisors have been given new management positions at the agency's headquarters in Washington. They are William G. McMahon, who was the ATF's deputy director of operations in the West, where the illegal trafficking program was focused, and William D. Newell and David Voth, both field supervisors who oversaw the program out of the agency's Phoenix office.

McMahon and Newell have acknowledged making serious mistakes in the program, which was dubbed Operation Fast and Furious.


Source

© source where applicable

Are they being rewarded for their own admitted bungling or for keeping their mouths shut?

The former would not end up in a promotion. But of course that's how it functions in a system that is normal. In a system that is systematically corrupted, we would expect incompetence to result in promotion. Sort of like the situation where not one hire-up got fired or demoted as a result of 911.

[Challenger Grim]

The former would not end up in a promotion. But of course that's how it functions in a system that is normal. In a system that is systematically corrupted, we would expect incompetence to result in promotion. Sort of like the situation where not one hire-up got fired or demoted as a result of 911.

I've got a friend that's started working for the government and it's really interesting hearing him talk.

Like apparently there is enough of a challenge to fire someone (relating to government jobs anyway) that it is sometimes easier to promote/shift a person to where they can do less "damage". As with all things, it started out as a good idea (you don't want some employees to be subject to the whim of political officials that come and go) but eventually it all goes pear shaped.

[Challenger Grim]

Oh man...
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/...-crime-scenes/

[Sheepdog]

Just in case anyone doesn't believe that the New York Times is an extreme left-wing, slimy rag:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=45644

Standard left-wing tactic, uncomfortable with the facts of the story, lie about and viciously attack your enemies.

[Epoetker]

I believe it's never a wrong time to point out that The New York Times is now mostly owned by Carlos Slim, richest man in the world, who just happens to live in Mexico, where money buys you government influence much more directly with far less hassle.