Does God sustain, support, and nourish satan?

[OtherCheek]

Hell is for punishment and to keep those in there from those who are not.

If God keeps people suffering eternal torment in hell forever, instead of annihilating them, is it for the sake of punishment on them or mercy on them?

I don't think God gets pleasure from having to put anyone there. It is something necessary. And as far as the torment goes, I think it is the torment of being separated from God for eternity and having to live with their shame, not devils sticking them with hot pokers.

I agree.

So, why CAN'T God ever let a person out of hell, who pleads for mercy and has had enough suffering, and is willing to repent and keep his commandments?

I also think that because of their shame at rejecting God, they would be more miserable if they were in heaven having to face their shame in front of God's throne for eternity. So in the end, God gives them what they want. separation from him. a place to "hide"

But how do you know that people in hell will forever want to be there and suffer eternal torment? Is there some happiness in eternal torment that it should be desirable for them?

as CS Lewis said:
"I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside."

Doesn't that imply that they can also be "opened" from the inside if the inclination is there? How certain are you that every person sent to hell, really desires to be a rebel for eternity?

[Sparko]

If God keeps people suffering eternal torment in hell forever, instead of annihilating them, is it for the sake of punishment on them or mercy on them?

Ask God. My take is that God thinks any existence, even in hell is preferable to nonexistence, and therefore good. and as I said, I think he is giving those in hell what they want, a place away from Heaven and the torment is of their own making.

I agree.

So, why CAN'T God ever let a person out of hell, who pleads for mercy and has had enough suffering, and is willing to repent and keep his commandments?

Because the time for making choices is here on earth during our mortal lives.

But how do you know that people in hell will forever want to be there and suffer eternal torment? Is there some happiness in eternal torment that it should be desirable for them?

I believe the torment is of their own making, OC. They hate God and want to be alone, so God lets them. What they suffer in hell would be worse if God made them stand in his presence for eternity.

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

Doesn't that imply that they can also be "opened" from the inside if the inclination is there? How certain are you that every person sent to hell, really desires to be a rebel for eternity?

because if they didn't then they wouldn't have rejected God during their mortal lives. I don't think they can change their mind once judgment is passed. Just like Satan and his followers can't repent. Or do you believe that Satan can repent and become forgiven?

[OtherCheek]

Okay, but it seems impossible for there to be infinite gods in finite space, especially if they all have bodies

Unless space is also infinite. Or infinitely stretching.

Scripture Verse:

Jeremiah 51:15
15 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.

What makes evil bad and what makes good, good? If they just exist independent of anyone's judgment?

Anyway, perhaps the fact that both just "exist" forces us to make a "judgment" in the first place, and THAT'S what is important. That we are required to choose for ourselves.

If 'Evil' is just as old and just as natural as 'good,' why do I have a right to oppress evil? 'Evil' is older than the heavenly father himself.

??? I didn't quite get that.

Sure. When he creates free creatures with the ability to disobey him, they can perform "evil".. which is disobeying God

So then you would agree that God has ALWAYS been aware of the concept of evil, right? And if God has always been aware of the concept, then isn't the concept itself eternal?

[OtherCheek]

Ask God. My take is that God thinks any existence, even in hell is preferable to nonexistence, and therefore good. and as I said, I think he is giving those in hell what they want, a place away from Heaven and the torment is of their own making.

Okay. Thanks.

Because the time for making choices is here on earth during our mortal lives.

Do you think that every person on the earth has all the information available to them (that they should have or need to have) in order to choose Jesus or not choose Jesus?

I believe the torment is of their own making, OC.

(It's "jackass", to you, sparko.)

Anyway, can agree with that.

They hate God and want to be alone, so God lets them. What they suffer in hell would be worse if God made them stand in his presence for eternity.

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

If I die as a "jackass" and a devout Mormon, would you conclude that my deeds have been evil, and that I hate God? Or the devout Hindu, or JW?

because if they didn't then they wouldn't have rejected God during their mortal lives. I don't think they can change their mind once judgment is passed.

Do you believe God passes final judgment the moment a person passes from this earth life?

Just like Satan and his followers can't repent. Or do you believe that Satan can repent and become forgiven?

I don't believe satan will ever repent, because he doesn't want to, and never will want to. But I also believe that there is learning and informing and teaching taking place between death and the resurrection. I don't believe every person on this earth possessed or possesses all the knowledge they need or should have in this earth life to make informed choices about Jesus Christ.

But I do believe that AFTER the resurrection, after immortal bodies are given, that there will NOT remain anyone who still wants deliverance from outer darkness.

[RBerman]

But, isn't Jesus also the true vine for every person born to the earth--whether he is a professing believer or not at a given moment? Doesn't everyone who wants to be saved, eventually need to be 'grafted in' to the true vine in order to have eternal life? I know the Bible doesn't use the term "grafted" in connection with the vine, but it does with reference to an olive tree. (see Romans 11:16-26). And it fits with the true vine imagery as well the olive tree. How else can a person who is not a believer become a believer and be saved unless he is metaphorically "grafted in" to the true vine, like the believing Gentiles are?

Jesus is the true vine, period. But not everyone is grafted into him in the first place. John 15 is not about those who never profess faith. It's about those who do and then either fall away or don't fall away.

Common sense indicates that suffering often leads to repentance. I submit that there is no good will or pleasure in endless suffering for those who have had enough suffering and who plead for mercy. And who would submit to conditions for deliverance from that suffering.

Your submission has no basis in the Bible. It's simply an "It seems to me..." sort of supposition.

[OtherCheek]

Jesus is the true vine, period. But not everyone is grafted into him in the first place. John 15 is not about those who never profess faith. It's about those who do and then either fall away or don't fall away.

But if Jesus is the true vine for everyone, then everyone must be "grafted in" for to obtain Eternal Life, right? Even those who don't profess faith, will eventually need to be grafted in to be saved, won't they?

Your submission has no basis in the Bible. It's simply an "It seems to me..." sort of supposition.

Submission meaning yield.

Scripture Verse:

but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are live from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Rom 6:13

Doesn't it make sense that if suffering might cause some poor souls to desire to yield themselves to God, and to look for deliverance, that God will provide?

[RBerman]

But if Jesus is the true vine for everyone, then everyone must be "grafted in" for to obtain Eternal Life, right? Even those who don't profess faith, will eventually need to be grafted in to be saved, won't they?

Yes, within Jesus' metaphor, every man who gets eternal life is 'grafted into the vine.'

Submission meaning yield.

I was referring to your language of "I submit that..." where you meant, "I believe that..." The "submission" of which I spoke was your claim.

Doesn't it make sense that if suffering might cause some poor souls to desire to yield themselves to God, and to look for deliverance, that God will provide?

There's no end of mischief that begins with "Doesn't it make sense that...?" and then proceeds to speculate about things that God has not said.

[OtherCheek]

There's no end of mischief that begins with "Doesn't it make sense that...?" and then proceeds to speculate about things that God has not said.

Oh, I suppose.
Or we can just quote the scripture "my ways are not your ways, and my thoughts are not your thoughts" and put an end to all this business of trying to understand God.

[RBerman]

Or we can just quote the scripture "my ways are not your ways, and my thoughts are not your thoughts" and put an end to all this business of trying to understand God.

At least when trying to understand things that have not been revealed, we should. It's fine to be curious about God, but not fine to make declarations where Scripture is silent. It seems to me that most of the aberrancies of Mormon doctrine arise specifically in the area of trying to fill perceived gaps in the Bible, while in the process generating conflicts with what God actually has revealed.

Titus 3:9

avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

[Chappie]

Does God sustain, support, and nourish satan?

And if so, would satan vanish into nothingness or completely die and be gone, if God withdrew his support?

All things in existence derive their sustenance (ability to exist) from a totality of God’s creation. Satan is just one being that is dependent upon the full sphere of God’s creation for his sustenance. He is not unique in that regard. This is true not only of men and angels, but of every expression of life that exists. Satan is one tiny aspect of God’s creation that is allowed to exist under the auspices of the same rules and regulation that govern the sphere of his existence:

Because God allows him to continue to exist in no way suggests that God is supportative of his disobedience and evil. By allowed I mean that God has not to this point chosen to take specific action to cause him to cease to exist. And unless God chooses to take such action, he will continue to exist. Apparently he has a role to play in how God has chosen to deal with sin and evil. A role that Satan has chosen to exhibit through his own countenance and choices, absent any supportative influences from God...

Would he cease to exist without God’s support? Under the understandable present system of man and angels existence, I believe, ”yes”. I believe that men and angels were created by God with immortality. Even in the judgment, neither men nor angels cease to exist, but rather are confined either within our outside the presence of God. Now this is not to suggest that God could not utterly destroy him from existence should he chose to do so, but just as God allows the evil of men to exist and run its course, so it is with Satan and angels. The immortality of the soul appears to not be an aspect of creation that God is willing to eradicate, even as a viable response to Sin and evil... There are principles at work here that are much greater than even the concept of evil and disobedience.

[Sparko]

Okay. Thanks.



Do you think that every person on the earth has all the information available to them (that they should have or need to have) in order to choose Jesus or not choose Jesus?

No. That is why we need to spread the gospel. But neither does God OWE anyone this knowledge. That is why it is called "grace" because it is undeserved.

If I die as a "jackass" and a devout Mormon, would you conclude that my deeds have been evil, and that I hate God? Or the devout Hindu, or JW?

Yes. Not only are we all sinners, OC, but you have dedicated your life to worshiping a false God, and you can't even claim ignorance.

Romans 3: 9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b]
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

Do you believe God passes final judgment the moment a person passes from this earth life?

I think there is a day of judgment when everyone will be judged and "sentenced" but before then, think of it as jail vs prison. Jail is where criminals are held until they are judged. But those who belong to Christ will avoid "jail" altogether. But I also believe that people will be judged on their actions during their mortal life and have no way to undo that once they have passed from this world. If it were not so, then there would be no reason to even spread the gospel, just wait till someone dies, teach them the gospel, and they can make their choice then in full view and knowledge of God.

I don't believe satan will ever repent, because he doesn't want to, and never will want to. But I also believe that there is learning and informing and teaching taking place between death and the resurrection. I don't believe every person on this earth possessed or possesses all the knowledge they need or should have in this earth life to make informed choices about Jesus Christ.

So you don't think Satan will repent because he won't want to, even after living forever in torment? Yet you think people in hell will? Why?

But I do believe that AFTER the resurrection, after immortal bodies are given, that there will NOT remain anyone who still wants deliverance from outer darkness.

So you don't believe that people will want out of hell? That's not what you said earlier.

[The Pixie]

I believe the torment is of their own making, OC. They hate God and want to be alone, so God lets them. What they suffer in hell would be worse if God made them stand in his presence for eternity.

Have I understood this right?

You believe that everyone who goes to hell must necessarily hate God. That is, atheists and Hindus and pagans who do not believe the Christian God exists, you think thet all hate God. Indeed, they all hate God so much they would all choose to suffer in hell rather than be in his presence.

What is your basis for thinking that?

[RBerman]

Have I understood this right? You believe that everyone who goes to hell must necessarily hate God. That is, atheists and Hindus and pagans who do not believe the Christian God exists, you think thet all hate God.

"Hatred" need not manifest itself in a constant conscious brooding about something. It's just a strong negative reaction. I hate the texture of coconut. I don't go around all day thinking about it. But when I eat something and discover that it contains coconut, I instinctively have a negative response. And I avoid situations where I'll deliberately come into contact with coconut. And I promulgate my opinion, telling people not to put it in things they want me to eat. I hate it. Judging by your posts, you have a strong negative reaction against God. Not that you're rude about it. But strong nonetheless.

Indeed, they all hate God so much they would all choose to suffer in hell rather than be in his presence. What is your basis for thinking that?

False assumption. One need not choose a certain consequence per se in order to engage in behavior that naturally leads to that consequence. Nobody goes around thinking, "I choose to be fat." But lots of people go around thinking, "I think I'll have another cup of Ramen Noodles. Mmmm..... noodles...." They may intellectually know that Ramen makes them fat (or they may not), but that knowledge doesn't really enter into their decision-making process. So one wouldn't speak of Hindus or atheists "choosing Hell" in an active an conscious manner. They don't even believe Christianity's claims about Hell, so Hell can hardly enter into their decision-making. But they can still make choices that result in Hell, just as eating Ramen makes you fat.

[Cow Poke]

nice twist on my words, OC.

My thoughts exactly when I found this thread.

I said God sustains Satan, and I gave you the definition of "maintains existence" but rather than use that definition, you choose to use a different definition that means "nourish and support"

It is necessary for OC to argue against positions he ASSIGNS us rather than positions we actually hold, and he seems to be doing that with greater frequency of late.

[Sparko]

Pixie, this discussion is between theists. This area is not for discussing whether God exists or not, or whether those who don't believe in him hate him or not. This is General Theistics, not Apologetics 301. So please take yourself elsewhere.