Do you agree with Moroni 8:18?

[JAYMZ]

To us on this earth, there is but one God and no other.

......wink, wink..........nod, nod.......

[JAYMZ]

As far as the biblical verses of God having no Gods before him, we believe that those verses are in context to this earth. To us on this earth, there is but one God and no other. As Paul said,

1 Cor 8:5-6
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Talk about a LITERAL translation. So, do you really think Paul was writing that Baal and Zeus were actual " gods, " but we are not supposed to serve them because Elohim is our God ?


If you think Paul meant literal gods here, then do the LDS also believe that " gods " like Baal and Zeus are real Gods ?

[OtherCheek]

It's an interesting, but limited perspective to suppose that human language (including English, Greek, and Hebrew) are wholly adequate to define and explain the concept we call "Eternity." Especially for those of us who are still trapped in this bubble we call "time."

On this topic, I put stock in what Isaiah wrote in chapter 55:8-9:

Scripture Verse:

8 ¶For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I also try to apply a broad understanding to such scriptures, rather than a narrow one. I would presume that the language of heaven is more adequate than human language in explaining and teaching on a whole lot of topics.

Mormons just happen to have additinal scriptures to explain and teach certain gospel truths to a further extent than the Bible does. Even so, serious pondering is always warranted with any gospel concept. I'm sure the power of human language in LDS additional scriptures is still inadequate for complete understanding of ETERNITY, as compared with the power of the language of the Spirit. But that just points to the inherent weakness of giving greater devotion to text on a page over pondering and understanding through the Spirit.

[Sparko]

it's not like the bible just says "eternity" and we have interpreted that based on modern notions. The bible says things like there are no Gods before God, that God was always God without beginning and without end. That pretty much contradicts the LDS idea of "eternity"

[Cow Poke]

It's an interesting, but limited perspective to suppose that human language (including English, Greek, and Hebrew) are wholly adequate to define and explain the concept we call "Eternity." Especially for those of us who are still trapped in this bubble we call "time."

On this topic, I put stock in what Isaiah wrote in chapter 55:8-9:

Scripture Verse:

8 ¶For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I also try to apply a broad understanding to such scriptures, rather than a narrow one. I would presume that the language of heaven is more adequate than human language in explaining and teaching on a whole lot of topics.

Mormons just happen to have additinal scriptures to explain and teach certain gospel truths to a further extent than the Bible does. Even so, serious pondering is always warranted with any gospel concept. I'm sure the power of human language in LDS additional scriptures is still inadequate for complete understanding of ETERNITY, as compared with the power of the language of the Spirit. But that just points to the inherent weakness of giving greater devotion to text on a page over pondering and understanding through the Spirit.

Some good points, OC, none of which address the Reconstruction of Mormon Doctrine that, apparently, was much more Trinitarian at the outset.

[onefour1]

Most of this is unnecessary.

Merriam Webster's online Dictionary:
eter·ni·ty noun \i-ˈtər-nə-tē\
plural eter·ni·ties

Definition of ETERNITY
1: the quality or state of being eternal - Noun: applicable
2: infinite time <lasting throughout eternity> - Verb: applicable
3plural : age 3b - inapplicable
4: the state after death : immortality - inapplicable
5: a seemingly endless or immeasurable time <an eternity of delays> - hyperbole: inapplicable

From Dictionary.com we have:
e·ter·ni·ty   /ɪˈtɜrnɪti/ Show Spelled[ih-tur-ni-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural -ties.
1. infinite time; duration without beginning or end. - applicable
2. eternal existence, especially as contrasted with mortal life: the eternity of God. - applicable
3. Theology . the timeless state into which the soul passes at a person's death. - inapplicable (and questionable)
4. an endless or seemingly endless period of time: We had to wait an eternity for the check to arrive. - hyperbole: inapplicable
5. eternities, the truths or realities of life and thought that are regarded as timeless or eternal. - Inapplicable and highly questionable.

From wikipedia:
"While in the popular mind, eternity often simply means existence for a limitless amount of time, many have used it to refer to a timeless existence altogether outside time. By contrast, infinite temporal existence is then called sempiternity. Something eternal exists outside time; by contrast, something sempiternal exists throughout an infinite time. Sempiternity is also known as everlastingness" - Another reason to not use wiki in debate. Arguably applicable but a pain in the rump to get there.


I think of ice cream as homemade, the stuff from the grocery store and the good stuff at the ice cream parlor. When communicating with others its necessary to communicate which definition is in view.


Okay. You realize it's irrational, right? Time existing outside eternity is required - but time necessarily exists within eternity especially if anything within time persists outside it. You're coming up with an eternity-verse - which has no rational basis. (The multi-verse is a convenience for quantum which cannot be proven. Highly debatable as to how persistent it would be anyway since it doesn't seem necessary outside the quantum level. An 'eternity-verse' is pure speculation at best.)

All the applicable or arguably applicable definitions are relative to time. Time is a quality of eternity, the arguable equivalent of space to infinity.



*emphasis mine


You just blew your own argument - all kinda means 'all', which logically encompasses all eternity(s) and all times (which are necessarily subsets of eternity). If this statement is true, your argument is false. There is no 'time' at which God is changeable.

The divorce of the temporal from eternity has massive problems as well - most especially if you believe humans are eternal. If the temporal existence* is not part of the eternal then logically, neither are those existences within it.


*Where is this thing supposed to be, anyway? Does it float around outside eternity? Why? Mere limitation wouldn't cause a divorce - it would just be a quantity within eternity. Time is always a quality of eternity so how can it exist independently yet contain elements (us, God) which are eternal?

I am not referring to time in the way you think I am. I certainly believe that events occur in eternity and they do pass. The passage of events and our memory give us a sense of a past. Events can be compared to an arbitray motion, like the ticks on a clock, in eternity as well as here. So yes, in the sense that you think I am talking about time, I do believe time exists in eternity. But the time that I am referring to is a separation from eternity and the creation of a state of existence where things decay and die. where life has to be sustained by food and water to maintain life. This is a state of time. It is limited. I am not speaking of the passage of events but the state of time which is not part of eternity. Granted I should have explained this because the definitions in the dictionaries and wikipedia do not view time in this fashion but in the fashion of the passage of events. My point however was to show that the definitions show time as a state of existence as well as an infinite duration. This state we exist in is a subset of eternity and we will all continue to exist after this temporal (time) state is over. But this temporal state when looked at by itself is limited and existence as embodied spirits has a beginning and end. In eternity, there is no beginning or end to our existence and once we receive a body there, it will continue with us forever. There are alot of differences between the two states. LDS thought sees eternity and this temporal existence as states we exist in. Thus the verses quoted.

[Cow Poke]

I am not referring to time in the way you think I am.

Seriously, because Mormons have come up with unusual twists on so many aspects of Christianity, and have different meanings for commonly used orthodox terms, this is no surprise. It should be expected.

But you bring up a good point. I think it would be very helpful for Mormons to begin discussions with, "I am not referring to Salvation in the way you think I am". Or... "I am not referring to Heaven in the way you think I am".... or....

I am not referring to [insert commonly used orthodox word or phrase here] in the way you think I am.

This "truth in advertising" statement would be very helpful, particularly in the event of a Mormon trying to convert an orthodox Christian to Mormonism.

[OtherCheek]

I am not referring to time in the way you think I am. I certainly believe that events occur in eternity and they do pass. The passage of events and our memory give us a sense of a past. Events can be compared to an arbitray motion, like the ticks on a clock, in eternity as well as here. So yes, in the sense that you think I am talking about time, I do believe time exists in eternity. But the time that I am referring to is a separation from eternity and the creation of a state of existence where things decay and die. where life has to be sustained by food and water to maintain life. This is a state of time. It is limited. I am not speaking of the passage of events but the state of time which is not part of eternity. Granted I should have explained this because the definitions in the dictionaries and wikipedia do not view time in this fashion but in the fashion of the passage of events. My point however was to show that the definitions show time as a state of existence as well as an infinite duration. This state we exist in is a subset of eternity and we will all continue to exist after this temporal (time) state is over. But this temporal state when looked at by itself is limited and existence as embodied spirits has a beginning and end. In eternity, there is no beginning or end to our existence and once we receive a body there, it will continue with us forever. There are alot of differences between the two states. LDS thought sees eternity and this temporal existence as states we exist in. Thus the verses quoted.

This question doesn't puzzle any Mormons, and whatever we say won't satisfy the critics.

End of story.

[Cow Poke]

This question doesn't puzzle any Mormons, and whatever we say won't satisfy the critics.

End of story.

That can be said of any cult, OC.

[Bill the Cat]

This question doesn't puzzle any Mormons, .

Of course not. You just toss out the "hasn't been revealed" or "we don't know" responses, and you are satisfied in your ignorance. How Santa gets into houses with no chimneys doesn't puzzle most kids either...

[Bill the Cat]

..., we believe that those verses are in context to this earth. To us on this earth, there is but one God and no other.

Which one? And what do you do with the other 2 you believe are related to this earth? Are they not Gods too?

[Cow Poke]

Which one? And what do you do with the other 2 you believe are related to this earth? Are they not Gods too?

[onefour1]

Which one? And what do you do with the other 2 you believe are related to this earth? Are they not Gods too?

God our Heavenly Father is the only true God.

John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

In other words, he is the one who is the center of our worship. Jesus Christ, his only Begotten Son in the Flesh, is a revelation to us of God our Heavenly Father. Thus Jesus only did that which the Father would have him do:

John 8:38
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

John 14:31
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Luke 22:42
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

John 8:29
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 5:19
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Matthew 26:42
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Jesus did only that which the Father would have him do. Jesus was a perfect revelation of the Father. Jesus was in word and deed revealing the Father unto us. All his actions pointed to the only true God. Not only his words and deeds but also his image was the express image of the Father.

Heb 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

It was because of these things that Jesus was able to teach:

John 14:7
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 15:24
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

John 14:9
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


God our Heavenly Father is revealed to us through his Son, the Holy Ghost, Prophets, etc. Before this earth was created, a quorum of 3 persons was formed and is known as the Godhead, or God for short. The head of this quorum of 3 is God our Eternal Father in Heaven. The other two are Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. They are one, and all three represent the only true God. Jesus only reveals to us that which is of the Father. The Holy Ghost only reveals that which is of the Father. The Father is the head. The other two are a revelation and representation of the Father. As agents of the Father and perfect revelations of Him, they even at times represent him in the first person. They are one and only do the will of the Father. All good things point to the Father. Jesus Christ is a perfect being and as such is a perfect representation of Almighty God. His oneness is not that of being the same person or being but that of the same will, purpose, desire, and spiritual likeness. Thus in John 17 we read that we too can become one, even as Jesus is one with the Father. This is true because Jesus and the Father are not the same being but one in will and purpose, sharing in the same glory.

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost form a perfect bond of unity and are a perfect expression of the Father. Together as a Godhead and quorum of three, they reveal and represent the one true God to us.

[Bill the Cat]

God our Heavenly Father is the only true God.

So, logically, the other two are not true Gods.

John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So, if your belief is true, then Jesus would have to be a false god, since he is a separate entity altogether.

In other words, he is the one who is the center of our worship.

This verse says nothing of worship.

Jesus Christ, his only Begotten Son in the Flesh, is a revelation to us of God our Heavenly Father. Thus Jesus only did that which the Father would have him do:

John 8:38
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

John 14:31
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Luke 22:42
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

John 8:29
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 5:19
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Matthew 26:42
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Jesus did only that which the Father would have him do. Jesus was a perfect revelation of the Father. Jesus was in word and deed revealing the Father unto us. All his actions pointed to the only true God. Not only his words and deeds but also his image was the express image of the Father.

Heb 1:1-3
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

It was because of these things that Jesus was able to teach:

John 14:7
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 15:24
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

John 14:9
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Don't get a hernia hurling that elephant. Just answer the questions:

1) How many "true gods" are there?
2) Who is it?
3) If you answer to #1 is only 1, then how can the others be "true gods"?
4) If the others are not "true gods", then why are they not "false gods", since there is only true and false?

God our Heavenly Father is revealed to us through his Son, the Holy Ghost, Prophets, etc. Before this earth was created, a quorum of 3 persons was formed and is known as the Godhead, or God for short. The head of this quorum of 3 is God our Eternal Father in Heaven. The other two are Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. They are one, and all three represent the only true God. Jesus only reveals to us that which is of the Father. The Holy Ghost only reveals that which is of the Father. The Father is the head. The other two are a revelation and representation of the Father. As agents of the Father and perfect revelations of Him, they even at times represent him in the first person. They are one and only do the will of the Father. All good things point to the Father. Jesus Christ is a perfect being and as such is a perfect representation of Almighty God. His oneness is not that of being the same person or being but that of the same will, purpose, desire, and spiritual likeness. Thus in John 17 we read that we too can become one, even as Jesus is one with the Father. This is true because Jesus and the Father are not the same being but one in will and purpose, sharing in the same glory.

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost form a perfect bond of unity and are a perfect expression of the Father. Together as a Godhead and quorum of three, they reveal and represent the one true God to us.

I know your dogma. It dodges the question completely, and restates the same thing that was responded to earlier.

[ke7ejx]

Wow....I'm gone for three weeks and we are STILL on this?