Separated

[RBerman]

I find your initial statement a little unfair since she hasn't exhibited signs of depression (as far as I can tell) except for the last month or so of her pregnancy. As I've said to Raphael, these signs went away pretty quickly, and she hasn't seemed to exhibit them since the baby's been born. On top of that, the issues we have began the first day back from our honeymoon. If she's been depressed that long, I have no idea. It's certainly not the case that I'm looking for an excuse to get out of my marriage. I love my wife very much, and our problems are killing me inside. Something has to change.

As for my pastor, I have only met him once. My church is too big for most members to even be acquaintances, so I'm sure no one else knows about it. I do participate in a married small group once a week. I intend to mention a little bit when we meet this week, and I will certainly seek to talk with the guy there I'm closest with. I don't really know anyone that would count as a spiritual mentor, though the guy I will talk with is probably as close as it gets.

OK. "My wife (depressed or not) is making me miserable" is also not a godly reason for divorce, though I certainly don't envy your position, at least as you describe it. You must realize that our ability to counsel you is severely compromised by the fact that we're only hearing your perspective on the matter. If you are contemplating breaking your marriage vows, you need to do a whole lot more than just "mention it a little bit" to your small group. You need to present yourself to the elders of your church ASAP. They are responsible to God for your soul, and you make them complicit in your sin if you fail to seek out and then submit to their leadership and discipline. Once you've gotten appropriate counsel and prayer, I suspect you'll find that these issues began long before your honeymoon, though of course I can't tell you how at this point.

[lao tzu]

Someone else has told me the same thing, and I"m sufficiently convinced. Incidentally, I told my wife on the phone tonight that I was going to see a counselor on my own even if she didn't want to join me. She actually expressed a willingness to go (which was unexpected). I think she's starting to understand how serious I think this is.

That's good news, but not entirely unexpected, given your participation. Remain prepared to attend alone if she backs out, and you may find that she again comes around to being willing to attend with you. There are of course no guarantees, not all relationships can be "fixed." But fortune favors the bold, and the more chances you give your relationship, the better your odds. Best wishes.

As ever, Jesse

[Cow Poke]

Someone else has told me the same thing, and I"m sufficiently convinced. Incidentally, I told my wife on the phone tonight that I was going to see a counselor on my own even if she didn't want to join me. She actually expressed a willingness to go (which was unexpected). I think she's starting to understand how serious I think this is.

First, I want to say (not discounting everybody else) that I'm really impressed with Raph's heart on this, and his advice in general.
Second, I have been married a long time, C, as you know -- 36 years this Tuesday. It hasn't always been a picnic.
The first two years, I think we actually hated each other. We were young, self-centered, and pretty much married the person we THOUGHT we knew.

It got better in years 3 to ... oh.. about ... 10, but, quite honestly, I think it was largely because I learned how to work on my expectations.
Many times I wondered if it would really last, because we were so different. I'm a "let's talk and work it out" kind of guy, and she's a "just leave me alone and let me work through it" kind of girl. Tough combination. I had to learn how she processes things. She's NOT a talker (or wasn't) -- she is NOW!

We stayed together (from my perspective) both because of the vows that AP mentioned, and because we had two daughters who needed a dad. We "got along", but many times it simply was not fun.

I don't know what happened, but in the last few years, she seems to have become more of a "best friend" like I hear others talking about. It's good. But there have been rough spots.
There had been times I thought I had made a terrible mistake in marrying her. But I stuck it out, and, in retrospect, a lot of the "trouble" was my own expectations.

Finally -- that "mentor" thing --- the guy from your weekly group --- that's huge. You need somebody you can talk to IRL, and somebody to be accountable to. Also, your Church situation -- maybe you need to rethink that. Some people do quite well in a "big church" situation, but it sounds like you are really longing for the "belonging to" feeling that you get from a smaller church or small groups or .. you're missing a "fellowship" aspect of Church. You and I have chatted about this in the past, and I've always sensed that you'd do much better in a closer fellowship type of Church. USUALLY (in my limited experience) the bigger Churches have "care groups" or "lift groups" or some other type of small groups. I'm a big fan of those, because it's like the "sunday school" of the "olden days", where you actually get to know people and learn who you can trust.

I'd even be willing to drive up there and have a steak with you if you needed to talk eyeball to eyeball. And I'd buy the steak!

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I know about post-natal depression, but that's not involved.

To say post-natal depression is not the sole factor could be true, but to say it plays no part at all sounds like a stretch. How would this be known?

These problems have existed since the day we got back from our honeymoon. She wasn't even able to admit there was a problem until she was eight months pregnant, at which time she was diagnosed with depression and started seeing a psychologist.

And did you consider how hard that would be? How many people want to go see a psychologist and be told they have depression? There is a great fear some people have of psychologists. Your wife took this step. I'd say she likely did it for you. Celebrate it.

Obviously, she's not continued seeing one after the baby was born, and I'm pretty sure she's not intending to go back.

Again, this is known how? Mind-reading can be a dangerous game to play.

It's a constant battle, and one that has gotten worse and worse.

Question. What exactly are you battling? Are you battling her or her depression?

Everything I do has been to try to help her and support her, but I have been fought every step of the way.

You have been? Let's look at it this way. She has depression. Do you think she wants to remain like that? Does anyone really enjoy depression? I would say she's been scared every step of the way. Toodles knows I have a phobia just as she has her own difficulties. You could say I fight her every step of the way on my phobia. Do I? Not really. It's just facing a number of things can be hard. Realize this hardness.

And yes, I've told her that's my motivation more than once, but I am still accused of having ulterior motives.

And really, can it be blamed? Note that if she is as depressed as you say she will be very accusative at times because she sees herself in a hopeless situation and that if you think going to a psychologist will cure it, well you don't understand. Now that's not my stance, but that is how it is seen. Depressed people want to get out but for every cure it's "Well that works for everybody else, but I'm different." Thankfully, those of us who don't have depression are never ever like that ourselves.....

She knows that she has no idea what I actually expect, think or desire, but she refuses to ever just stop and ask me. The baby is just (a lot) more of the same.

And are you asking her what she expects, thinks, or desires? It could be she doesn't even know right now and the baby just adds to the confusion. She has so many issues going on right now, including asking if she'll be a good mother or not.

AP, I really do understand what you're saying.

Do you? To be blunt, I'm skeptical. The thought of breaking the vows before God and men makes me wonder if you do understand what those vows said.

The love I have for my wife has not diminished, but my ability to deal with her issues is nearing its end.

I wonder what it would mean if God said "I have a love for Carik that has not diminished, but my ability to deal with his sins is nearing its end." This is something to keep in mind when you think your spouse is wronging you. You have done worse to Christ. Far far worse, and yet he is still there for you.

Love seeks the good of the other. How is leaving her bringing about her good? It only makes it worse. I recommend Gary Thomas's book "Sacred Marriage." Thomas makes the point that often in marriages, a person thinks that a partner in the marriage needs to change. They're absolutely right! The problem is they have the wrong partner in mind. You can influence your spouse. In fact, you will. You cannot change her however. You can change yourself. If you wish to influence your wife, influence her. Don't try to change her. Change yourself. I recommend reading "Your reactions are showing."

If there had ever been signs of improvement or change in the last few years, it'd be a lot different. As it is, I've pretty much run out of hope.

Read Romans 8 and then get back to me on this.

I've suggested marital counseling more than once, but she is unwilling to go. Again, I've not reached this point easily. I'm just running out of options and hope.

I see this has changed, but go by yourself if need be. It's amazing when you talk to a good therapist sometimes how clearly they can see the wrong ideas in your own thinking.

I know I've been blunt and frankly, Toodles thinks I've been too blunt some times, but I only have the desire to help in mind.

[Carrikature]

OK. "My wife (depressed or not) is making me miserable" is also not a godly reason for divorce, though I certainly don't envy your position, at least as you describe it. You must realize that our ability to counsel you is severely compromised by the fact that we're only hearing your perspective on the matter. If you are contemplating breaking your marriage vows, you need to do a whole lot more than just "mention it a little bit" to your small group. You need to present yourself to the elders of your church ASAP. They are responsible to God for your soul, and you make them complicit in your sin if you fail to seek out and then submit to their leadership and discipline. Once you've gotten appropriate counsel and prayer, I suspect you'll find that these issues began long before your honeymoon, though of course I can't tell you how at this point.

Is there such a thing as a godly reason for divorce? I wouldn't think so. I agree that you are only going to hear my perspective, but then again you haven't received even that much from me really. I haven't detailed at all why I had come to this decision (let's not forget either that things have taken a turn for the better in the meantime). All I've done is respond to some questions about the possible effects of depression, if any. I won't disagree that some of these issues began before we got married, but I know from having been in this relationship that our wedding is what drastically changed a lot of behaviors. As for the elders, that's not likely to ever happen. I've only met one of them for about ten minutes, the rest I'm not even sure who they are. I certainly don't accord them any better ability than a counselor to help us through these issues. It's possible, of course, that one or more of them ARE trained counselors, but I don't consider this likely.

That's good news, but not entirely unexpected, given your participation. Remain prepared to attend alone if she backs out, and you may find that she again comes around to being willing to attend with you. There are of course no guarantees, not all relationships can be "fixed." But fortune favors the bold, and the more chances you give your relationship, the better your odds. Best wishes.

As ever, Jesse

Thanks! I'll be sure to stick with it. Having her agree to this has been a major relief to me.

First, I want to say (not discounting everybody else) that I'm really impressed with Raph's heart on this, and his advice in general.
Second, I have been married a long time, C, as you know -- 36 years this Tuesday. It hasn't always been a picnic.
The first two years, I think we actually hated each other. We were young, self-centered, and pretty much married the person we THOUGHT we knew.

It got better in years 3 to ... oh.. about ... 10, but, quite honestly, I think it was largely because I learned how to work on my expectations.
Many times I wondered if it would really last, because we were so different. I'm a "let's talk and work it out" kind of guy, and she's a "just leave me alone and let me work through it" kind of girl. Tough combination. I had to learn how she processes things. She's NOT a talker (or wasn't) -- she is NOW!

We stayed together (from my perspective) both because of the vows that AP mentioned, and because we had two daughters who needed a dad. We "got along", but many times it simply was not fun.

I don't know what happened, but in the last few years, she seems to have become more of a "best friend" like I hear others talking about. It's good. But there have been rough spots.
There had been times I thought I had made a terrible mistake in marrying her. But I stuck it out, and, in retrospect, a lot of the "trouble" was my own expectations.

Finally -- that "mentor" thing --- the guy from your weekly group --- that's huge. You need somebody you can talk to IRL, and somebody to be accountable to. Also, your Church situation -- maybe you need to rethink that. Some people do quite well in a "big church" situation, but it sounds like you are really longing for the "belonging to" feeling that you get from a smaller church or small groups or .. you're missing a "fellowship" aspect of Church. You and I have chatted about this in the past, and I've always sensed that you'd do much better in a closer fellowship type of Church. USUALLY (in my limited experience) the bigger Churches have "care groups" or "lift groups" or some other type of small groups. I'm a big fan of those, because it's like the "sunday school" of the "olden days", where you actually get to know people and learn who you can trust.

I'd even be willing to drive up there and have a steak with you if you needed to talk eyeball to eyeball. And I'd buy the steak!

I appreciate the encouragement. You're also right that I am a person that needs a very close relationship, but that can really only extend to one or two people at most. I've been in enough churches to feel like I've gotten the full range of sizes, but I honestly haven't never gotten 'fellowship' from the church as a whole anyway. The smaller the church, the more isolated I tend to feel. I intend to talk to the guy in our married group, though I look at him more as a role model than someone I'm really close to. I had really hoped that my wife could be someone I was pretty close to, but I felt pretty early on like she wanted no part of it. I got that impression because of decisions she has made and continued to make even when I've mentioned my reaction to them. I know this is something that she and I will need to deal with in depth at some point. At the very least, I will (and do) have a lot of forgiveness issues to work through.

[Carrikature]

To say post-natal depression is not the sole factor could be true, but to say it plays no part at all sounds like a stretch. How would this be known?

Obviously I'm not a trained psychologist. However, based on her behavior during her pre-natal depression, she doesn't display any signs of post-natal depression. At the very least, it seems to be a pretty mild form. Pre- and post-natal depressions aren't the same as general depression, either, since they are caused primarily by hormonal changes in the body during and after pregnancy.

And did you consider how hard that would be? How many people want to go see a psychologist and be told they have depression? There is a great fear some people have of psychologists. Your wife took this step. I'd say she likely did it for you. Celebrate it.

I did and do understand that it is very difficult. She didn't take the step of going to a psychologist for me, though. It was pretty obvious that something serious had to change before she caused herself or the unborn baby physical harm. If I was a consideration, I was at best a minor one.

Again, this is known how? Mind-reading can be a dangerous game to play.

Again, I was there for the pre-natal depression, and I already knew to be looking for signs of post-natal depression. There haven't been any. No mind reading required.

Question. What exactly are you battling? Are you battling her or her depression?

Her. Or more often, her misconceptions/expectations of how she thinks I will behave based on her brothers' or father's behavior. It matters not what I've said to convince her otherwise, as experience has shown.

You have been? Let's look at it this way. She has depression. Do you think she wants to remain like that? Does anyone really enjoy depression? I would say she's been scared every step of the way. Toodles knows I have a phobia just as she has her own difficulties. You could say I fight her every step of the way on my phobia. Do I? Not really. It's just facing a number of things can be hard. Realize this hardness.

Don't over-estimate your knowledge of my feelings on this matter. I haven't cavalierly dismissed anything. You have a lot more assumptions going throughout your post than I've stated anywhere in this thread. Gimme a break.

And really, can it be blamed? Note that if she is as depressed as you say she will be very accusative at times because she sees herself in a hopeless situation and that if you think going to a psychologist will cure it, well you don't understand. Now that's not my stance, but that is how it is seen. Depressed people want to get out but for every cure it's "Well that works for everybody else, but I'm different." Thankfully, those of us who don't have depression are never ever like that ourselves.....

And again over-stating what I'm saying. "As depressed as I say" isn't accurate. I've never detailed that. You're not even stopping to ask me what's going on, you're just running from your own assumptions and criticizing me for (supposedly) doing the same.

And are you asking her what she expects, thinks, or desires? It could be she doesn't even know right now and the baby just adds to the confusion. She has so many issues going on right now, including asking if she'll be a good mother or not.

Yes, I've asked her. More than once. Also, as I've mentioned more than once, this isn't just a 'now we have a baby' thing. It's the same things that have been going on from the beginning.

Do you? To be blunt, I'm skeptical. The thought of breaking the vows before God and men makes me wonder if you do understand what those vows said.

Your skepticism is not my problem. This isn't a point I've reached easily. I started this thread looking for some sort of hope and advice. Despite being near my limits, I was (and still am) searching for some ray of hope.

I wonder what it would mean if God said "I have a love for Carik that has not diminished, but my ability to deal with his sins is nearing its end." This is something to keep in mind when you think your spouse is wronging you. You have done worse to Christ. Far far worse, and yet he is still there for you.

I'm not Christ. Hard to believe, huh?

Love seeks the good of the other. How is leaving her bringing about her good? It only makes it worse. I recommend Gary Thomas's book "Sacred Marriage." Thomas makes the point that often in marriages, a person thinks that a partner in the marriage needs to change. They're absolutely right! The problem is they have the wrong partner in mind. You can influence your spouse. In fact, you will. You cannot change her however. You can change yourself. If you wish to influence your wife, influence her. Don't try to change her. Change yourself. I recommend reading "Your reactions are showing."

I have sought and sought and sought the good for her. I am trying to change myself in many ways. I need support for that too, and some of that support needs to come from my wife.



Ask yourself this: honestly, how long would you continue talking to someone that sticks their fingers in their ears yelling, "LALALALA!"? Minutes? Hours? Years? Each of us has a limit, and that's what I reached. With recent developments, I've been pulled back some from that limit. Don't kid yourself, you have that limit too. I just hope you never find it. It's not any fun.




PS: I get that you're trying to be helpful, and I'm trying to keep that in mind. It is pretty frustrating to have someone make a ton of assumptions then accuse me of making too many assumptions in return. I've never talked to you about any of my marital issues, so I know you don't even have my admittedly biased perspective to draw from. At least give me the benefit of the doubt and try to find out more information before jumping off the deep end.

[RBerman]

Is there such a thing as a godly reason for divorce? I wouldn't think so. I agree that you are only going to hear my perspective, but then again you haven't received even that much from me really. I haven't detailed at all why I had come to this decision (let's not forget either that things have taken a turn for the better in the meantime). All I've done is respond to some questions about the possible effects of depression, if any. I won't disagree that some of these issues began before we got married, but I know from having been in this relationship that our wedding is what drastically changed a lot of behaviors. As for the elders, that's not likely to ever happen. I've only met one of them for about ten minutes, the rest I'm not even sure who they are. I certainly don't accord them any better ability than a counselor to help us through these issues. It's possible, of course, that one or more of them ARE trained counselors, but I don't consider this likely.

You are in a dire situation if you are unable or unwilling to seek counsel from those shepherds responsible for your spiritual well-being. This will be the first (or perhaps it's simply the latest) of many situations to bear bitter fruit for you if that defect is not remedied. God placed you in the church, in part, because this sort of situation happens. You have no problem seeking counsel from total strangers on the internet who are not trained counselors. Why shut your church's leaders out of the loop, when they are in a far better position to aid you than we are? Are we going to say anything that can't be said by people who can look you in the eye, place their hands upon you, and pray for you in person?

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Obviously I'm not a trained psychologist. However, based on her behavior during her pre-natal depression, she doesn't display any signs of post-natal depression. At the very least, it seems to be a pretty mild form. Pre- and post-natal depressions aren't the same as general depression, either, since they are caused primarily by hormonal changes in the body during and after pregnancy.

Very well.

I did and do understand that it is very difficult. She didn't take the step of going to a psychologist for me, though. It was pretty obvious that something serious had to change before she caused herself or the unborn baby physical harm. If I was a consideration, I was at best a minor one.

Maybe she didn't for you, but I would say take what you can and go with it. Again, the question husbands should be asking more often is not "What is she doing for me?" but "What am I doing for her?" You are obligated to fulfill your end of the covenant. If you do, then you stand before God unashamed. If she does, she does the same. If any of you doesn't, then you stand before God with that on you.

Again, I was there for the pre-natal depression, and I already knew to be looking for signs of post-natal depression. There haven't been any. No mind reading required.

I'd just watch to make sure it's known. I will give the benefit of the doubt to you however. I do think you want to do the right thing, but I fear that you are not in this regards. I see no biblical grounds for separation.

Her. Or more often, her misconceptions/expectations of how she thinks I will behave based on her brothers' or father's behavior. It matters not what I've said to convince her otherwise, as experience has shown.

It can take a long time to unlearn the beliefs that someone has got, which is why I think Cognitive Belief Therapy is so important. I hope you realize however that your battle is not ultimately with her but with false ideologies. She's got some false views about her value and yours and about what is expected. Reality is you and I can look in the mirror and see the same thing in us.

Don't over-estimate your knowledge of my feelings on this matter. I haven't cavalierly dismissed anything. You have a lot more assumptions going throughout your post than I've stated anywhere in this thread. Gimme a break.

Not saying it's been cavalierly dismissed. I'm just saying it can be hard to put yourselves in the shoes of the other. For instance, Toodles struggles with overeating and is working on that. Meanwhile, I struggle with being afraid of food. When she talks about being really hungry, I honestly do not understand it. I'm a guy who could have one meal and last easily. If she woke me up in the morning and said "Want to run a mile?" I could do easily before breakfast.

I'd say to do some reading on depression. I do know I struggled with such a mindset for awhile. What exactly is it your wife is doing outside of the house and for that matter, inside of it?

And again over-stating what I'm saying. "As depressed as I say" isn't accurate. I've never detailed that. You're not even stopping to ask me what's going on, you're just running from your own assumptions and criticizing me for (supposedly) doing the same.

Fair point.




[QUOTE] Yes, I've asked her. More than once. Also, as I've mentioned more than once, this isn't just a 'now we have a baby' thing. It's the same things that have been going on from the beginning. [QUOTE]

True, but the baby does add another factor. If something happens in the marriage now, it will effect the way the baby grows up. Even if there were biblical grounds, it would have an effect on the baby.

Your skepticism is not my problem. This isn't a point I've reached easily. I started this thread looking for some sort of hope and advice. Despite being near my limits, I was (and still am) searching for some ray of hope.

And I respect that.

I'm not Christ. Hard to believe, huh?

Neither am I, but we are called to be like him with our wives.

I have sought and sought and sought the good for her. I am trying to change myself in many ways. I need support for that too, and some of that support needs to come from my wife.

It optimally should, but it won't necessarily. You've sought the good. Don't stop now. It will be hard, but I'd say to take CP's story as inspiration.

Ask yourself this: honestly, how long would you continue talking to someone that sticks their fingers in their ears yelling, "LALALALA!"? Minutes? Hours? Years? Each of us has a limit, and that's what I reached. With recent developments, I've been pulled back some from that limit. Don't kid yourself, you have that limit too. I just hope you never find it. It's not any fun.

When something happens when she doesn't want to talk to me, generally what I do is just go off on my own with the book and settle down and just wait for her to come around. I also stop to look at myself to see what role I could be doing better.

PS: I get that you're trying to be helpful, and I'm trying to keep that in mind. It is pretty frustrating to have someone make a ton of assumptions then accuse me of making too many assumptions in return. I've never talked to you about any of my marital issues, so I know you don't even have my admittedly biased perspective to draw from. At least give me the benefit of the doubt and try to find out more information before jumping off the deep end.

Very well. My apologies.

[Carrikature]

You are in a dire situation if you are unable or unwilling to seek counsel from those shepherds responsible for your spiritual well-being. This will be the first (or perhaps it's simply the latest) of many situations to bear bitter fruit for you if that defect is not remedied. God placed you in the church, in part, because this sort of situation happens. You have no problem seeking counsel from total strangers on the internet who are not trained counselors. Why shut your church's leaders out of the loop, when they are in a far better position to aid you than we are? Are we going to say anything that can't be said by people who can look you in the eye, place their hands upon you, and pray for you in person?

What? I haven't asked anyone here for counsel. I didn't ask anyone here if I was doing the right thing. I didn't divulge all the gory details and ask people to help me analyze it. I simply asked for people's opinions on how worthwhile separation is. So far, two people have answered that question. Everyone else decided to tell me everything I was doing wrong and/or give me advice about what I should be doing. I'm open to advice, I'll take what I can get, but leave the condemnation elsewhere.

[themuzicman]

Carrik... sorry.... If separation gives you an opportunity for reconciliation, then do that, if your mind is made up.

But then work to be reconciled.

Also understand that your wife's depression will deepen greatly when you leave.

[RBerman]

What? I haven't asked anyone here for counsel. I didn't ask anyone here if I was doing the right thing. I didn't divulge all the gory details and ask people to help me analyze it. I simply asked for people's opinions on how worthwhile separation is. So far, two people have answered that question. Everyone else decided to tell me everything I was doing wrong and/or give me advice about what I should be doing. I'm open to advice, I'll take what I can get, but leave the condemnation elsewhere.

I'm not condemning you, Carrikature. But when you "asked people's opinions" on how worthwhile separation is, you are indeed "asking for counsel." Do you suppose that the unsuccessful interaction we're having right now sheds any light on the difficulties you're having in other interactions in your life? It does not appear that my counsel is being received, so I will cease to give it and simply will pray for you.

[Carrikature]

Maybe she didn't for you, but I would say take what you can and go with it. Again, the question husbands should be asking more often is not "What is she doing for me?" but "What am I doing for her?" You are obligated to fulfill your end of the covenant. If you do, then you stand before God unashamed. If she does, she does the same. If any of you doesn't, then you stand before God with that on you.

I try to do everything I can for her. I do feel that I have tried my best to fulfill my end of the covenant. I've not even the words to make people understand how hard this decision would be (and is) for me.

I'd just watch to make sure it's known. I will give the benefit of the doubt to you however. I do think you want to do the right thing, but I fear that you are not in this regards. I see no biblical grounds for separation.

I will keep an eye on it. What would biblical grounds for separation look like?

It can take a long time to unlearn the beliefs that someone has got, which is why I think Cognitive Belief Therapy is so important. I hope you realize however that your battle is not ultimately with her but with false ideologies. She's got some false views about her value and yours and about what is expected. Reality is you and I can look in the mirror and see the same thing in us.

You're right, it is false ideologies. I've known that from the beginning of our marriage, and I've been trying to correct those from the beginning. It's not my desire to simply abandon her to herself, that's part of why I was asking about the value in separation.

Not saying it's been cavalierly dismissed. I'm just saying it can be hard to put yourselves in the shoes of the other. For instance, Toodles struggles with overeating and is working on that. Meanwhile, I struggle with being afraid of food. When she talks about being really hungry, I honestly do not understand it. I'm a guy who could have one meal and last easily. If she woke me up in the morning and said "Want to run a mile?" I could do easily before breakfast.

Indeed.

I'd say to do some reading on depression. I do know I struggled with such a mindset for awhile. What exactly is it your wife is doing outside of the house and for that matter, inside of it?

I have done a fair bit of reading on it before. She's not doing much inside or outside of the house. She won't let me help with anything, and she has pretty much refused my every attempt to get her to pump milk so that I can take the baby for longer periods of time. When I talk to her about it, she even agrees with my thinking that she needs to be able to get out and let me help more, but she still refuses to do it. That's pretty typical of nearly every aspect of post-natal life. What am I supposed to do with that?

True, but the baby does add another factor. If something happens in the marriage now, it will effect the way the baby grows up. Even if there were biblical grounds, it would have an effect on the baby.

I know that, and it's a huge concern for me. As it stands, I'm not allowed to do anything with the baby anyway. I'm not sure how much I can or should expect that to change as she grows up. Again, I'm at a loss.

Neither am I, but we are called to be like him with our wives.

I do try...

It optimally should, but it won't necessarily. You've sought the good. Don't stop now. It will be hard, but I'd say to take CP's story as inspiration.

I've come to accept that it won't come from her. I'm trying to take people's encouragement. The fact that she's agreed to attend marriage counseling me is helping a lot, too. Just understand that things weren't good from the start and have deteriorated in the meantime.

When something happens when she doesn't want to talk to me, generally what I do is just go off on my own with the book and settle down and just wait for her to come around. I also stop to look at myself to see what role I could be doing better.

Most often if I let things be, they end up being ignored and/or forgotten.

Very well. My apologies.

I know you're well-meaning.

[Carrikature]

Carrik... sorry.... If separation gives you an opportunity for reconciliation, then do that, if your mind is made up.

But then work to be reconciled.

Also understand that your wife's depression will deepen greatly when you leave.

My mind isn't made up. I was looking for one last ray of hope, but I didn't want to fool myself into believing something could be worthwhile if it wasn't.

I'm not condemning you, Carrikature. But when you "asked people's opinions" on how worthwhile separation is, you are indeed "asking for counsel." Do you suppose that the unsuccessful interaction we're having right now sheds any light on the difficulties you're having in other interactions in your life? It does not appear that my counsel is being received, so I will cease to give it and simply will pray for you.

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood your tone, then. Understand that my emotional state isn't the best these days. You're comments feel a lot closer to effectively kicking me while I'm down. I really really need someone on my side, but no one seems to bother with that.

I've never been good with trusting random people 'just because I'm supposed to'. I don't believe that the elders of a church, or the pastor for that matter, are any better people than the rest of us. I'm certain that my personal history has helped shape that thinking. So let's start over a little. Why would I expect the elders to know any more than anyone else does? Why would I expect them to be capable of spiritual discernment and/or discipline?

EDIT: I'd also like to note that I'm not dead-set against seeing the elders. Mostly, I just fail to see the point.

[themuzicman]

Carrik... At the risk of giving advice you didn't ask for, I know what you're going through. (i'll understand if you stop reading here...) My wife was depressed for several years, and I was clueless about what to do about it. When she finally acknowledged it, I got some savvy advice, which I'll pass along: You can't fix this. There really isn't much you can do, other than to be there. She has a process she has to go through, and you're going to have to watch. I couldn't beg, plead, ask or really do anything to try to push her into help, because it would ultimately push her away from it. Yes, it was the hardest thing I had to do as a husband. I had to find a balance between keeping the household going and not making my wife more depressed.

Yeah, so, if she won't let you help, don't help. If she doesn't want to do something, let it go.

A few years later, I was in a counseling class, and the prof explained (in general terms) why.. depression is a bit like being on caffiene. When you take caffiene, you induce your body to use more energy than it can replace. After the caffeine wears off, you have the crash, because your body goes into a recovery phase, where it needs to recoup that energy spent. The longer you're in the caffeine phase, the longer you're in recouperation.

Depression is the same crash, but in the mind. The mind processes stress and stressful activity at a certain rate. If more stress is taken in than can be processed for a long enough period of time, the mind "crashes" for a period of time to catch up on processing. The brain stops caring about dealing with normal stress, because it doesn't have the capacity to deal with it, which is why depressed people seem numb.

What I learned is that if I press my wife about getting help or doing something more or differently, all I'm really doing is pushing more stress on her, because now she's not doing what she is supposed to be doing, and can't really do it anyway.. creating a cycle of stress and depression.

What I found is that I needed to do anything I could to relieve her stress without involving my wife. Do laundry. Wash dishes. Cook dinner. Go shopping. I also found that my wife needed time with close friends. All of these things removed stresses from my wife, so she could start to come out of the stress induced depression, and start to reorganize her thinking and life to get to a place where she could function again.

Yeah, it took time. It sucked at times. But my wife went through the process, and she's out of it, now.

[themuzicman]

My mind isn't made up. I was looking for one last ray of hope, but I didn't want to fool myself into believing something could be worthwhile if it wasn't.

There is always hope, when you hang on to it. Love hopes all things.